"It really does change you from the inside out when you get to choose a life that serves you."

Therapist Courtney Leak on leaving the US to make Panama her home

In this week’s conversation, I got to connect with the sought-after experiential and somatic therapist Courtney Leak about why she decided to leave the United States and make Panama her home.

Courtney was my therapist for two years, and is the therapist of many of my friends. She changes people’s lives.

Here is how she describes her work:

Courtney assists individuals, couples, groups, and businesses with connecting to their deepest truth and most authentic selves despite how far they've gotten from that version. She teaches people how to reincorporate joy and play into their lives through inner child work and self-care. Courtney also guides people through their stories in an experiential way that allows them to see themselves and others more clearly from all angles.  

As I discuss in the interview, Courtney played a massive role in getting me moving on my goal and dream of moving to Italy.

She did this first by holding me accountable.

When I mentioned my dream, she asked me, “Are you really going to move to Italy, or will you just talk about it? Because many people say they will do things like this but never take any action to make it a reality.”

I knew she was right.

Her reflection prodded me to start taking concrete steps to determine whether this move could actually happen. I started learning about the process of purchasing property in Italy and working to find an area where we could afford to buy.

I began researching the logistics of living in another country. I liquidated money from our retirement accounts and set it up in interest-earning money market accounts so that it was ready if we found something we could afford, which thankfully we did. (This is not financial advice; no financial advisor thought this was a good idea).

The second way Courtney helped me was by telling me I wasn’t imagining how hard it has become to live in the US for many people. She understood my desire to learn a different way to live in a different country with different values in a way many Americans, including some of my family and friends, do not.

Third, Courtney set an example for me and inspired me when she decided to leave the US to make a home in Panama with her son.

In our interview, a year into living in Panama, Courtney discusses what led her to make this decision and shares just how healing the move has been for her and her son.

Courtney talks about the importance of living what she calls an “unshackled life” where we aren’t “weighed down by expectations, relationships or belief systems that cause us to live a life where we don't feel free.”

I hope you find it as inspiring as I did!

AI TRANSCRIPT

(there may be mistakes but the recording is available above)

Kirsten Powers:

Well, Courtney, thank you so much for being here with me. For everybody who's watching this is Courtney Leak and she was my therapist for a couple years and she was so good that I don't need to see her anymore. So she's one of those therapists that actually wants to get rid of you and is not interested in being codependent, so I really appreciate that.

Courtney, you were, I think maybe the first person who really kind of, I don't know, called me in, called me out, called me up basically about moving to Italy because I would say it's really my dream. I want to move to Italy. I don't want to live in the United States anymore. We would sort of talk about our feelings about the United States and you'd say, well, are you really going to do it or are you just going to talk about it?

And that was a real turning point for me where I was like, she's right. Yeah, we need to do something about this. And so that really started getting us moving on, starting to think where could we afford, could we afford it? Starting to look, and that's one thing led to another. And now we're purchasing some land in Italy. Fingers crossed we're trying to get it done.

So then after that, you really expanded my worldview because maybe a year after that you said, Hey, I'm actually doing this and I'm going to move to Panama. So that's what I wanted to talk to you about today.

I guess the first question is why did you want to leave and why Panama?

Courtney Leak:

Yeah. I think, if I'm honest, I wanted to leave starting in 2016. Well, if I'm really honest, I always wanted to study abroad. I never studied abroad. It was one of my big regrets from college. And I've loved travel, I've loved other cultures. I really, really wanted to experience the entire world. I think sometimes the US can be such a silo and there's so many narratives about the world, and the more that I've traveled, many of those aren't true. And so I wanted to experience the world differently, but as things started to change politically, I have a son, so I'm raising a black son in the us and it's hard and it's scary. But the thing that really was the ultimate catalyst was my son had one more day of school after the Uvaldi shooting, and I did not want him to go to school for his last day of school.

And I was literally trying to bribe him because I was so anxious. And he paused and said, mom, I know you're scared. I can't not go to school because there are shootings. We just have to accept that if we live here, shootings may happen.

And I said, oh, I can't do this.

I personally need to live somewhere where I feel more safe, more regulated, and I feel like I'm giving my son more of an opportunity to live free. And so we started the process. Panama made a lot of sense because of time zone and location and the great expat community and the great black expat community. And that was where we landed.

Kirsten Powers:

Now, a lot of times people will ask me particulars about how I'm going to do it with Italy, and I'm doing it right now. So I don't know if I remember correctly, you start out with joining an expat group on Facebook, like a black expat group, and then you sort of discovered, could you talk a little bit about that process?

Courtney Leak:

Absolutely. So yes, I joined expat groups on Facebook for all the places that I looked. I had about four or five countries that I was looking into, and I joined all black expat groups. And it matters. There are countries, racism is not just a thing in the us and so I wanted to be sure that there, we were moving somewhere where we would be accepted. And so joining black expat groups gave us that information. And so over time, I started to whittle it down based on what black expats in Panama was really offering. They were offering relocation tours and activities that felt like if someone was going to walk with me through the process, batting can be lonely. And so feeling like I was stepping into a community felt safer for me.

Kirsten Powers:

What were the other countries that you were looking at?

Courtney Leak:

I looked at Portugal and I looked at Thailand, maybe Indonesia, Costa Rica, Belize. As long as it's not cold.

Kirsten Powers:

Yeah. And what was it about Panama that appealed to you? I mean the time zone you said, but did you think Portugal was a possibility? Was that something that you took seriously?

Courtney Leak:

I did not get to go to Portugal before I chose Panama. I've been to Portugal since, and I love it. I do love it. I don't want to be cold, so I know they have real winters here. It's always in the eighties, so I'm a little spoiled, but I did Portugal and I am considering something around maybe residency there because you can have residency in multiple places. Yeah,

Kirsten Powers:

We could be neighbors.

Courtney Leak:

I know. So yeah, so I would love to consider Portugal as well, but Panama made a lot of sense. It's two and a half hours from Miami. I'm from North Carolina. And so if I needed to get home quickly just for my parents or anything I could, they take the US dollar. Unfortunately, Panama was occupied by the US until 1999. What that means is that there is a lot of us influence in regards to ways of creature comforts for me. And so Panama made sense in that way as well. I also knew people who were Panamanian and there was a great black expat community, so I wasn't going to be figuring it out alone. And that felt really good as well.

Kirsten Powers:

And it's been a little over a year, right? What's the verdict?

Courtney Leak:

We love it. Yeah, we love it. And it's getting even harder to go back. We went back to the states. So in Panama, my son's summer is different. They don't really have a summer. They have the dry season and the wet season. So his summer vacation is December to March.

And so we went home to North Carolina for a month and it was really hard, and we both just had to have a conversation of ‘this is not home.’ And I didn't expect Panama to become home so quickly. But our nervous systems feel better here. My son's very free and out. It's a safe country despite what people believe.

And so he'll leave and I'll just track him on his phone walking to the barbershop, and then he'll go get himself a croissant and then he'll go to the record store and he's just getting a different experience and learning new languages. I'm learning Spanish in a deeper way. I knew some Spanish, but I'm learning in a deeper way. I have supports here that I couldn't afford in the US It's just been amazing. It's not perfect. That doesn't exist, and it's been really amazing.

Kirsten Powers:

Yeah. Well, and it's worth pointing out that you are an expert in somatics, so you're very tuned into what's happening to the body. And can you talk a little bit about that, about comparing what it's like to be in the United States somatically versus being in Panama?

Courtney Leak:

Yeah, absolutely. For me, when I'm in the US I'm often outside my window of tolerance. And so for those who don't know, your window of tolerance is the space you have to tolerate the ups and downs of your day.

And so a lot of times I noticed that I was very irritable or exhausted or over-functioning, even heightened all the time, anxious because I couldn't tolerate all the things happening around me, all the fear around violence and racism and political disruption.

There was always this fear going on, and it was impacting me emotionally and physically. I also do a job where I hear a lot of people's stories and I hear a lot of pain. And so to experience it in the world all of the time and hold it with my clients, it was just too much. And so now that I'm in Panama, even when we're coming back, I can feel myself landing back into the healthy part of my nervous system.

As the plane is landing, I just feel more expansive. Here I have more room, which makes me a better everything. I'm less irritable with my son. He has more room for mistakes, and I'm more likely to say, son, I need you to correct that. Then you've lost your phone for a week.

I'm less likely to assume someone's out to get me or someone's trying to hurt me or do something because I just have room to consider other options. When you're in a heightened state or a frozen state, that's your only option. So if I feel, and if I'm in fight or flight and I feel threatened, everybody's a threat. And so when I'm not in that space, I'm able to see people with more compassion, more kindness, more curiosity, and it's just made me a better person.

Kirsten Powers:

And how much, did economic pressure play a role in moving as well? Or was that not a factor?

Courtney Leak:

It wasn't a huge factor. Panama's not one of the cheapest countries out there. It's pretty comparable to the us, maybe like a mid-city cost of living. It's not like a New York City or an LA for sure. But one of the things that is different here is you can afford to have help. So I have someone who helps me with my son when I travel and cleaning and cooking and laundry and grocery things that it's only reserved for the elite in the us.

Kirsten Powers:

That's significant.

Courtney Leak:

Yeah, it's huge, especially as a single parent. And I've learned, I have friends here who've also expat it in other countries. That's how it is all around the world. The US is the only place really where that's such an elite privilege to have help.

Kirsten Powers:

Yeah, no, I have a friend who is raising her kids in Argentina, and one of the reasons she wanted to do that is because that's just the norm there. And so it's like she's able to have a job and not be running around a crazy person and being stressed out all the time. Also, as you were talking about it, it's safer. You don't have those stresses that you have as a parent in the US where and all of that kind of stuff. They just do it differently in other countries. And can you tell us how your son's doing and how he, does he love it, miss the us, or

Courtney Leak:

He misses certain things? He misses seeing family members more often, but people have come to visit, and I think that's been good for him to see that people will come to us, but he really does love it. It's interesting. You hear things like, oh, the food is different. But when we got here, he shot up several inches, his voice deepened. It's almost shocking to see now that he's getting different things or not as much high fruit towards corn syrup, how his body is changing. He's 12, and so he's going through puberty, but I feel like he's going through puberty in a healthier way because he has access to healthier foods and he loves

Kirsten Powers:

It. Yeah, that's so great. And I mean, you're just glowing. That's the thing you really do. You just look amazing and you look so happy. I mean, not to say you were unhappy before, but its like it's like I Can definitely feel like the shift in energy. It's like there's a freeness or something about it.

Courtney Leak:

Yes, yes. I've been talking with a lot of people about living an unshackled life, living a life that is not shackled to the things that weigh us down to expectations, to relationships, to belief systems that cause us to live a life where we don't feel free. And I think that doing this helped me to finally break some of those chains that from generations come from. I'm African American, I come from people who were literally shackled at one point and whose society has shackled mentally for a long time after that. And being able to show them something different and show myself something different feels like it's healed me ancestrally in a way. I feel a lightness that I know is not just mine. I know it is the ancestors that had no choice in where they called home for many, many generations. And I got to choose my home that feels very powerful and different, and I feel like it's impacted my skin is better. All the things. It really does change you from the inside out when you get to choose a life that serves you.

Kirsten Powers:

Did you ever think you would do something like this move? I

Courtney Leak:

Didn't. No. I lived in the city I was born in. I had never really moved very far from home at all. And I thought I would always be in that same space. I would travel and all these things, but it really came out of nowhere. And what I also love is that it's made me incredibly bold. So in September, I took my son to the Galapagos. We had no idea what we were doing. We Googled, we researched, we hopped on a plate, we sat in a truck taxi, and we saw big turtles. We just feel like we can do anything now, and I'm excited that he's getting that experience

Kirsten Powers:

Now. Are your friends all like now we're going to move there too, or are people following you?

Courtney Leak:

I don't know if people are following me, but people are loving the ability to come visit. I just had four friends come for Carnival. I have two friends and their baby coming in a couple of weeks. I have several people scheduled to come. I think it's giving people an option that they didn't consider. It's interesting what people believe about things. The ignorant things that people have said to us since we've expat it is

Kirsten Powers:

Fascinating. What kind of things do they say?

Courtney Leak:

I remember, so somebody asked Carter, they were saying, so we live in Panama City, which is very, very metropolis city. We live in a high rise condo. And somebody said to Carter, now, do your friends have to leave and go work in the fields after school?

Kirsten Powers:

Oh my God,

Courtney Leak:

Come on, honey. And he didn't understand. He was so confused and I just kind of interjected and I was like, no, their nannies picked them up.

Kirsten Powers:

Oh God,

Courtney Leak:

Where do you think, what are you talking about? Because I think people just assume, oh, you live in a fourth, third world country. And my son didn't even understand. He was like, what was? I was like, yeah, people just make assumptions. People have said to me like, oh, we thought you lived in a hut. I'll be FaceTiming and they'll see my apartment. They're like, oh, we thought you lived in a hut. Why would you think that? It's just a very interesting concept, but I think my friends who were not ignorant in that way are also like, oh, but this is an option in a way that they didn't know it was an option.

Kirsten Powers:

Yeah. I think that's why when I wrote my piece about we're out, I got a lot of people sort of saying that, having that kind of real, oh, we can do this. So that's a thing. We're allowed to leave. There are other places. Oh yeah. People don't just don't stop and think often. You just take it for granted that the way it is is the way. And so rather than going, well, wait a minute, is this the way it is in other countries? Well, let's take a look. And it turns out in a lot of places it isn't like that. And so people have these ideas, whether it's about healthcare or they're not going to be able, I mean, what's the healthcare like there?

Courtney Leak:

Our healthcare is really good. We have a John Hopkins affiliate. We have a VA here still, so that's a really good opportunity. A lot of people, a lot of veterans retire in Panama. Interesting. But they have access to VA services, but we have John Hopkins. A lot of people come here for medical vacations, a lot of plastic surgery. People come here. And so the medical care is really good and it's really cheap. So you can get your teeth cleaned for $20, and I have,

Kirsten Powers:

I'm going to come visit you and then get my dental work done. Absolutely.

Courtney Leak:

Yeah. I had a medical situation where I had lifted something and I strained. I actually had what's called costochondritis where you inflame the cartilage in between your ribs, but I thought I was having a heart attack. It was so painful. I go to the doctor, he's so sweet. I'm still crying. He's like, we can do an EKG, it's fine. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is going to be so much money. He gave me a steroid, a B12 shot, gave me some medicine and a full EKG, and it was 80 bucks. And I was like, and then you'll bill me. He was like, no, no, go away. You're done. I was like, this would be a thousand dollars.

Kirsten Powers:

Oh, at least.

Courtney Leak:

And it was an emergency appointment. It would've been a thousand dollars.

Kirsten Powers:

Yeah, no, I know. It's the same thing in Italy. People tell you how much they pay for $50 for, it loans your mind for some major thing, and you're just like, how is that possible? So yeah, no, the US is really the outlier. That's the thing. It's like actually most places are actually like that. Exactly, and it's not. You're getting good healthcare, affordable, sort of the way it used to be in the United States a long time ago. So now are you doing any retreats? If anybody wants to work with you, what's going

Courtney Leak:

On? Yeah, people are coming to Panama to do intensivess. I've done some couples intensives and individual. I've been working on some retreat space. I haven't solidified it yet, but if people started showing interest, I would make it happen. The goal is to have one at least by the beginning of 25, but I think we're going to be able to pull it off by October, November of 24.

Kirsten Powers:

Okay. Well, I will link to all your stuff and you'll keep us posted. And you're the best, Courtney, you know that. And I just can tell anybody who's watching, if you have anything you need to deal with, Courtney can help you. She's helped me. She's helped. I don't even know how many of my friends. So thank you for being such an inspiration and for talking with us today to help expand possibilities for other people.

Courtney Leak:

Oh, thank you so much. Yes. I want people to live free, so if this helps, I'm glad it helps.