Reminds me of MLK’s letter from a Birmingham jail - in a way he was up against the same arguments.
We also have the same issue in Australia where both major parties have embraced hyper-capitalism. It’s a major barrier to change. It means both sides think things are “too complex” to undertake, or will “impact the economy” for example stopping new coal mines. I used to work for the Labor Party, but they have embraced hyper-capitalism even though it does so much harm to workers, let alone the environment.
Whether by actual conspiracy or just circumstance, too many seem to benefit from the nuance trolling. *I* believe there are concerted interests in keeping us from having nice things similar to our Western allies. After all, nice things cost money. The high profile nuance trolls influence nuance trolling in the electorate and, low and behold, we get lackluster progress. Every once in a while it seems the stars align and we punch through the stagnation, such as Obama’s ACA or (unplanned) marriage equality position.
Yes I think much of it is intentional but then other ppl just accept it as conventional wisdom—even ppl who don’t benefit from or are harmed by the status quo
Nuance trolling, a.k.a., I'm benefitting from the current system, but truly it breaks my heart that it's so complicated it can't be changed. I feel called out here. Thank you for that.
I refer some folks to have a good look at the GHI (Gross Happiness Index) where the U.S. just dropped from #16 to #23. I've been working on a draft for some of the reasons why. The 9 domains measured are for the country as a whole, not for individuals per se. That said, there's much to be learned about cultures, values and practices that are working better in other countries than in the U.S. Being the richest and the most powerful as a measure of success leaves a lot of people poor and powerless. I keep thinking about this.....
I lived in Finland as a child, left at age 11. I can’t comment on the social safety net there today, but every year I note that Finland is either at or near the top of the Gross Happiness Index. It’s a country with glorious summers and cold, dark winters. Based on my own experience I can only say that Finns are quietly private in many things, but they are connected to one another in ways I have never experienced in the US. They care deeply about their country, their arts, their traditions, and children. I mean all the children. Adults there, strangers included, were always concerned for my safety and well being. For that reason I could travel literally anywhere on public transportation by myself. And if I had misbehaved, strangers would correct me instantly and appropriately, to general approval of other passengers on the bus or streetcar. The ethic I experienced there was “We treat each other kindly whenever possible, and always with respect for you, me, and everyone.” What a shock it was to arrive in the US to experience the casual cruelty on display everywhere.
Thanks for teaching me a new term. I agree that "it's too complex" is a lousy argument for solving problems. However, I do think that progressives are often guilty of over-simplifying - of proposing great ideas without acknowledging that if not executed properly, their ideas are of no use. Good governance has much more to do with getting the details right than with having the best intentions.
I think that happens for sure—but I honestly see it more on the right as in “let’s invade a country w no plan and no concern for how much it costs or how complicated it is” and then acting like the disastrous results could t have been predicted when they were obvious. Most of the things progressives want aren’t going to kill anyone (let along tens of thousands of ppl) or completely destroy an entire country or destabilize a region of the world. And when I say “right” I include Democrats who go along with or even enthusiastically help drive these decisions.
Thanks for this thoughtful piece, Kirsten. I hadn't heard of nuance trolling and glad you delved into it because I can see how prevalent it is in our discourse. I will watch out for my own use of "it's too complicated" as a way to avoid wading into a problem (political or personal) that is going to require a lot of ingenuity and determination but isn't unsolvable. I think sometimes we nuance troll our own lives, too!
I like your helpful piece on nuance trolling. It reminds me of Oliver Wendell Holmes famous quote “For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that I would give you anything I have.” I wonder if what you describe as nuance trolling isn’t so much an avoidance of solving problems in some kind of negative or nefarious way, but it is rather being stuck in the middle of real complexity without the needed vision and perseverance to push through for a more profound and more simple solution.
Yes, I think you are probably right. However, I would rather talk with someone who at least sees nuance than those who see things through a simplistic black and white lens. But maybe that is too nuanced! Have a good day!
I too appreciate the learning the new term and will be monitoring myself! I had a nuanced trolling moment when I read your sentence about the cost of drugs in the US bs other countries. Given much of my time is spent working in collaborative efforts globally to bring drugs to everyone I wanted to jump in about the consequences of lower drug costs - & decided to kick myself into awareness where I’m whining it’s too complicated! Thanks for the conversation Kristen!
I know it’s hard! Bc it often is complicated—but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be dealt with. But now I’m curious to know what are the unforeseen consequences of lowering drug prices?
Apologies for not responding sooner. Too much work and travel. Most of the issues will surface around those with rare conditions as these therapies tend to be the most expensive because of the fewer people paying for them. There is a focus on new therapeutics which always have a higher cost, especially when targeting a smaller population for which they will be used. And, often the long-term impact of a new therapeutic that might be curative or potentially have a huge impact on an individual's quality of life is not taken into account when looking at the cost. It's much easier to reduce the cost for insulin that thousands of people use which will have an impact on the large profit margins of the companies, but relatively not that much. When you begin to negotiate drug prices for rare diseases where the companies tend not to make any money even over the course of time when balanced against the cost of bringing a new therapeutic to market - generally 10 years and a billion dollars - you will impact the pool of investors providing the funding to get a new, potentially life saving or life altering therapeutic to market as it will be too expensive on the commercial end to recoup the investment to get it to market. There's much more to say, but as with everything, there is no black/white answer and requires input and thoughtfulness and compromise to make the best decisions that will provide the greatest benefit for the most people. It's why it's so important for everyone to have the chance to understand the impact of policy decisions that seem good on the surface, but once you dig under the covers, there are gaps or unforeseen consequences. it's why I do the work I do to bring the collective voice of the patient community I serve to the table to help raise the awareness and collaborate to help close gaps or issues that the general public or legislators would never be aware of.
I’m about to set off on a two week vacation to the UK with a mini break in Stockholm, and look forward to seeing how these European countries are progressing compared to the US. I expect the UK to be worse, but hope the expected change of government to moderate labour will improve things. I am particularly looking forward to experiencing Sweden - our first visit to Scandinavia. Some of our best friends in our Atlanta neighborhood enjoy spending 5 months a year in Finland to see their children, but always look forward to returning to the US in the Fall to experience the benefits of Medicare and, for them, greater wealth with lower taxes.
Greater wealth for lower taxes is the reason the US is such a shit show and also Scandinavian countries have a Medicare system, the US does not have universal healthcare in any sense of the word.
I agree. Love of excessive wealth is not good. Isn’t it the key factor driving the decline of the church in America? Jesus was deadly serious when he exclaimed ‘how hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God’ (Mark 10:23), then repeated it, much to the chagrin of his followers. To be totally honest, I embraced the huge increase in income when I moved to the US in 1999, but have come to realize and confront this issue in my own heart.
Not that the issues you mention shouldn’t be addressed. They are serious issues that harm many people. I’ve observed that several people blame politicians on both sides for not addressing the issue. I detest it when they start talking about the so called ‘uniparty’ and that Trump would get on his white horse and fix it. We do need strong agents for change who speak clearly about these issues and vote accordingly. Speaking clearly about other systems that work quite well in other Countries is an important part of that. We should all play our part.
Denmark is not perfect. Bigotry exists there, especially out in the more conservative parts of Jutland, but nobody there thinks people aren’t entitled to health care or an education. They are very proud of being an educated country. If you get into a discussion with a Dane, you’d better have your facts straight. Few things are tolerated in an argument than not knowing what you are talking about. (Imagine Shark Tank when the pitch doesn’t know their numbers… yeah, quite painful)
Copenhagen and Århus have large populations of people from all over the world who live there — even Americans — whom they welcome, as long as they speak Danish, or at least try very hard. Danes are a lot of things, but they have collectively decided that the one thing that binds everyone together in that country is a language… even though there are hundreds of dialects and it is truly amazing how they understand each other!
There is nuance with universal, single-payer health care but not a lot. The United States is just one big insurance company with a military. 330M people all in the same pool, backed by the full faith and credit of the United States, guaranteed payments of medical bills to hospitals and doctors within 15 days of DOS in exchange for a 20-30% rates cut… no private insurance layer which reduces the costs by another 20% immediately… the billing depart still exists but probably to half, the doctors and hospitals all still exist except they bill just one payer; the USG.
Doctors/nurses go to medical/nursing school for free in exchange for medical schools cutting tuition but getting guaranteed pay from the USG… more doctors, nurses on salary not having to establish a practice.
The rich have private chefs, nannies, house managers, drivers and will also have private doctors. They’ll always take care of their own. My BIL (Danish, owns his own biz) has a theory about the rich Danes… it goes, “who cares?” That’s about it. They don’t affect his life, he doesn’t affect theirs. He’s happy…
Ahhh so very true. This brush off method using the complexity argument is laughable. Self-interests hide behind that argument — and greed. And further complicating matters today is how one-sided an individual's view has become.
In 1929, my grandfather's 20 year old wife died of polio leaving him with two infant children and a medical debt that took him most of the next decade to pay off. That was at a time that the American Medical Association was opposing health insurance on the grounds that “no third party must be permitted to come between the patient and his physician in any medical relation.” Almost 100 years later, medical insurance is far from perfect and whole areas of society - education, child care, housing policy, income distribution - languish because Americans just refuse to work together. Maybe in their own way, the Ramones described the USA's collective selfishness best in their song "I'm Against It".
Related to the nuance troll is the evidence troll. When writing about culture and especially weaving in psychology, I’ve had many people invalidate the argument because I don’t have empirical evidence for it. Not everything can be studied, and some things are off limits because of their potential conclusions being contrary to elite beliefs.
Reminds me of MLK’s letter from a Birmingham jail - in a way he was up against the same arguments.
We also have the same issue in Australia where both major parties have embraced hyper-capitalism. It’s a major barrier to change. It means both sides think things are “too complex” to undertake, or will “impact the economy” for example stopping new coal mines. I used to work for the Labor Party, but they have embraced hyper-capitalism even though it does so much harm to workers, let alone the environment.
Whether by actual conspiracy or just circumstance, too many seem to benefit from the nuance trolling. *I* believe there are concerted interests in keeping us from having nice things similar to our Western allies. After all, nice things cost money. The high profile nuance trolls influence nuance trolling in the electorate and, low and behold, we get lackluster progress. Every once in a while it seems the stars align and we punch through the stagnation, such as Obama’s ACA or (unplanned) marriage equality position.
Yes I think much of it is intentional but then other ppl just accept it as conventional wisdom—even ppl who don’t benefit from or are harmed by the status quo
Nuance trolling, a.k.a., I'm benefitting from the current system, but truly it breaks my heart that it's so complicated it can't be changed. I feel called out here. Thank you for that.
I refer some folks to have a good look at the GHI (Gross Happiness Index) where the U.S. just dropped from #16 to #23. I've been working on a draft for some of the reasons why. The 9 domains measured are for the country as a whole, not for individuals per se. That said, there's much to be learned about cultures, values and practices that are working better in other countries than in the U.S. Being the richest and the most powerful as a measure of success leaves a lot of people poor and powerless. I keep thinking about this.....
I lived in Finland as a child, left at age 11. I can’t comment on the social safety net there today, but every year I note that Finland is either at or near the top of the Gross Happiness Index. It’s a country with glorious summers and cold, dark winters. Based on my own experience I can only say that Finns are quietly private in many things, but they are connected to one another in ways I have never experienced in the US. They care deeply about their country, their arts, their traditions, and children. I mean all the children. Adults there, strangers included, were always concerned for my safety and well being. For that reason I could travel literally anywhere on public transportation by myself. And if I had misbehaved, strangers would correct me instantly and appropriately, to general approval of other passengers on the bus or streetcar. The ethic I experienced there was “We treat each other kindly whenever possible, and always with respect for you, me, and everyone.” What a shock it was to arrive in the US to experience the casual cruelty on display everywhere.
Yes exactly Gary - that wealth is built at the expense of the vast majority of citizens
Thanks for teaching me a new term. I agree that "it's too complex" is a lousy argument for solving problems. However, I do think that progressives are often guilty of over-simplifying - of proposing great ideas without acknowledging that if not executed properly, their ideas are of no use. Good governance has much more to do with getting the details right than with having the best intentions.
I think that happens for sure—but I honestly see it more on the right as in “let’s invade a country w no plan and no concern for how much it costs or how complicated it is” and then acting like the disastrous results could t have been predicted when they were obvious. Most of the things progressives want aren’t going to kill anyone (let along tens of thousands of ppl) or completely destroy an entire country or destabilize a region of the world. And when I say “right” I include Democrats who go along with or even enthusiastically help drive these decisions.
Thanks for this thoughtful piece, Kirsten. I hadn't heard of nuance trolling and glad you delved into it because I can see how prevalent it is in our discourse. I will watch out for my own use of "it's too complicated" as a way to avoid wading into a problem (political or personal) that is going to require a lot of ingenuity and determination but isn't unsolvable. I think sometimes we nuance troll our own lives, too!
Yes!
I like your helpful piece on nuance trolling. It reminds me of Oliver Wendell Holmes famous quote “For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that I would give you anything I have.” I wonder if what you describe as nuance trolling isn’t so much an avoidance of solving problems in some kind of negative or nefarious way, but it is rather being stuck in the middle of real complexity without the needed vision and perseverance to push through for a more profound and more simple solution.
I think it’s probably both.
Yes, I think you are probably right. However, I would rather talk with someone who at least sees nuance than those who see things through a simplistic black and white lens. But maybe that is too nuanced! Have a good day!
I too appreciate the learning the new term and will be monitoring myself! I had a nuanced trolling moment when I read your sentence about the cost of drugs in the US bs other countries. Given much of my time is spent working in collaborative efforts globally to bring drugs to everyone I wanted to jump in about the consequences of lower drug costs - & decided to kick myself into awareness where I’m whining it’s too complicated! Thanks for the conversation Kristen!
I know it’s hard! Bc it often is complicated—but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be dealt with. But now I’m curious to know what are the unforeseen consequences of lowering drug prices?
Apologies for not responding sooner. Too much work and travel. Most of the issues will surface around those with rare conditions as these therapies tend to be the most expensive because of the fewer people paying for them. There is a focus on new therapeutics which always have a higher cost, especially when targeting a smaller population for which they will be used. And, often the long-term impact of a new therapeutic that might be curative or potentially have a huge impact on an individual's quality of life is not taken into account when looking at the cost. It's much easier to reduce the cost for insulin that thousands of people use which will have an impact on the large profit margins of the companies, but relatively not that much. When you begin to negotiate drug prices for rare diseases where the companies tend not to make any money even over the course of time when balanced against the cost of bringing a new therapeutic to market - generally 10 years and a billion dollars - you will impact the pool of investors providing the funding to get a new, potentially life saving or life altering therapeutic to market as it will be too expensive on the commercial end to recoup the investment to get it to market. There's much more to say, but as with everything, there is no black/white answer and requires input and thoughtfulness and compromise to make the best decisions that will provide the greatest benefit for the most people. It's why it's so important for everyone to have the chance to understand the impact of policy decisions that seem good on the surface, but once you dig under the covers, there are gaps or unforeseen consequences. it's why I do the work I do to bring the collective voice of the patient community I serve to the table to help raise the awareness and collaborate to help close gaps or issues that the general public or legislators would never be aware of.
Thanks for teaching me a new term. I’m going to monitor myself to see whether influence trolling pops up in my own thinking.
I’m about to set off on a two week vacation to the UK with a mini break in Stockholm, and look forward to seeing how these European countries are progressing compared to the US. I expect the UK to be worse, but hope the expected change of government to moderate labour will improve things. I am particularly looking forward to experiencing Sweden - our first visit to Scandinavia. Some of our best friends in our Atlanta neighborhood enjoy spending 5 months a year in Finland to see their children, but always look forward to returning to the US in the Fall to experience the benefits of Medicare and, for them, greater wealth with lower taxes.
Greater wealth for lower taxes is the reason the US is such a shit show and also Scandinavian countries have a Medicare system, the US does not have universal healthcare in any sense of the word.
I agree. Love of excessive wealth is not good. Isn’t it the key factor driving the decline of the church in America? Jesus was deadly serious when he exclaimed ‘how hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God’ (Mark 10:23), then repeated it, much to the chagrin of his followers. To be totally honest, I embraced the huge increase in income when I moved to the US in 1999, but have come to realize and confront this issue in my own heart.
Sorry the tone of my comment wasn’t nice. Please accept my apology. (I can’t work out how to edit on this platform either which doesn’t help).
I thought your comment was fine!
I agree!
😅
Not that the issues you mention shouldn’t be addressed. They are serious issues that harm many people. I’ve observed that several people blame politicians on both sides for not addressing the issue. I detest it when they start talking about the so called ‘uniparty’ and that Trump would get on his white horse and fix it. We do need strong agents for change who speak clearly about these issues and vote accordingly. Speaking clearly about other systems that work quite well in other Countries is an important part of that. We should all play our part.
Denmark is not perfect. Bigotry exists there, especially out in the more conservative parts of Jutland, but nobody there thinks people aren’t entitled to health care or an education. They are very proud of being an educated country. If you get into a discussion with a Dane, you’d better have your facts straight. Few things are tolerated in an argument than not knowing what you are talking about. (Imagine Shark Tank when the pitch doesn’t know their numbers… yeah, quite painful)
Copenhagen and Århus have large populations of people from all over the world who live there — even Americans — whom they welcome, as long as they speak Danish, or at least try very hard. Danes are a lot of things, but they have collectively decided that the one thing that binds everyone together in that country is a language… even though there are hundreds of dialects and it is truly amazing how they understand each other!
There is nuance with universal, single-payer health care but not a lot. The United States is just one big insurance company with a military. 330M people all in the same pool, backed by the full faith and credit of the United States, guaranteed payments of medical bills to hospitals and doctors within 15 days of DOS in exchange for a 20-30% rates cut… no private insurance layer which reduces the costs by another 20% immediately… the billing depart still exists but probably to half, the doctors and hospitals all still exist except they bill just one payer; the USG.
Doctors/nurses go to medical/nursing school for free in exchange for medical schools cutting tuition but getting guaranteed pay from the USG… more doctors, nurses on salary not having to establish a practice.
The rich have private chefs, nannies, house managers, drivers and will also have private doctors. They’ll always take care of their own. My BIL (Danish, owns his own biz) has a theory about the rich Danes… it goes, “who cares?” That’s about it. They don’t affect his life, he doesn’t affect theirs. He’s happy…
Yeah, most Americans don’t understand what single payer is even tho we already have it w Medicare which no person who has it wants it taken away.
Ahhh so very true. This brush off method using the complexity argument is laughable. Self-interests hide behind that argument — and greed. And further complicating matters today is how one-sided an individual's view has become.
In 1929, my grandfather's 20 year old wife died of polio leaving him with two infant children and a medical debt that took him most of the next decade to pay off. That was at a time that the American Medical Association was opposing health insurance on the grounds that “no third party must be permitted to come between the patient and his physician in any medical relation.” Almost 100 years later, medical insurance is far from perfect and whole areas of society - education, child care, housing policy, income distribution - languish because Americans just refuse to work together. Maybe in their own way, the Ramones described the USA's collective selfishness best in their song "I'm Against It".
...I don't like politics
I don't like communists
I don't like games and fun
I don't like anyone...
I don't like sex and drugs
I don't like water bugs
I don't care about poverty
All I care about is me...
Spot on! Thanks for the essay, Kirsten.
~listening ~
Related to the nuance troll is the evidence troll. When writing about culture and especially weaving in psychology, I’ve had many people invalidate the argument because I don’t have empirical evidence for it. Not everything can be studied, and some things are off limits because of their potential conclusions being contrary to elite beliefs.