I could have listened to the two of you talk all day. Thank you for this conversation. I love the attention you're bringing to over-consumerism and how capitalism is ruining so many of us.
I loved this post and I am coming back to comment again because it deserves as much attention as possible! Thanks to both of you ladies for your endlessly good writing and communicating.
Thanks to both for sharing ur experiences I went in both countries but only like tourist, so I have no idea what means live in this places.
On the US tv movies I can see how money are seen like the most important thing, I always thought that was normal because if have to pay so much of the sanitary service of course u need a lot of money and a sanitary insurance. Even when I went for holiday I spent time thinking: “ok I selected the right insurance or I have to spent all my money for a bandaid?”.
But I don’t think moving to Italy would be good for everyone, if u work for a brand/factory etc isn’t Italian and u can work for real everywhere in the world you are more than welcome because u will have only the best from Italy. It will be more or less like being on holiday.
If u come here without a job I kindly suggest u another place maybe Spain.
Job contract here are insane it took me really yrs to have a permanent job that isn’t so well paid compared to the US. the same brand offer a salary of 2714$ (2479,79€) in US. and in Italy I’m my salary barely go over the 1000€ and I’m a store leader.
I worked for yrs for different brand and in some of them ur private life didn’t exist, u are contacted almost 24/24h I remember that I was hired to start a mobile project for a big brand and I was the only one knowing this world. No one of the staff wanted to learn to do those things. I tried to training them during the working hours but at the end everyone started calling me on each moment of the day. Once the store manager called me when I was waiting the bus to go to my mum, so the phone call started before to picking the bus, it continued when I was with my mum and it continued when I was having breakfast at the coffee shop. Then in the morning he contacted me again to talk with an Eng. customer and again with other problems.
The same happens very less luckily where I work now even when I’m off or on holiday I receive anyway a lot of messages and sometimes I can’t not answer.
For another brand I worked 60h a week with only one day off.
In Riviera Romagnola one of the sea zone in Emilia Romagna people works like crazy for 3-4 months working like waiter, chef, receptionist etc. they don’t have day off and are payed 1500-600€ per month (1700$ more or less) but the good thing is that after they have 8-9month of holiday.
Also a lot of brand let u without work or don’t hired u if with u say: “I’m pregnant” or “I have 1/2/3 kids” true story unluckily.
What is different is our mentality, we know that our government don’t take care of the country properly, we can count on the savings of our family members but aren’t so much so we have to save money so maybe new generations would have less problems or would have the change to go to other countries.
We are extremely realistic and like our grandparents we take care of our stuff, like only a crazy people would change the car frequently, or we try upcycling more things possible (this comes from our grandparents) and we know that we are mortal that mean every second counts and we want spending it with our family and friends this part is more a rollercoaster because the time changes with our work but there is always family first and that comes the others.
And of course the sanitary system isn’t always perfect but it works well and it’s almost free or cheap. If u go to private doc of course it’s expensive but u haven’t to sell the house to cure yourself, last summer I spent almost 5000€ for private surgery but I couldn’t wait my turn for the public sanitary service.
I still think that with a better government Italy could be the best country ever we have everything sea, beaches, art, story, creativity, medical care and resource it’s simply impressive. Still in 2024 people from the south move to north to find better work conditions; and the majority move to other countries to find better conditions.
The brother of a friend is a pediatric surgeon but in Italy was impossible finding a job he had to move in UK where he found immediately a job. Another friend moved to Spain where he published his first album and he is an university professor in Madrid, another one still in Spain opened a poke bar in Italy was impossible for her because taxes are insanely crazy.
I wrote a comment last time but maybe this gives a different perspective about working here that is more useful. I understand the point and thanks a lot Leyla to made me understand the prospective also of Uk.
Life is about how we use this precious gift of time and what choices we create to transition to a life-style we might prefer rather than the one we've been living. I know few people, regardless of age, who say, I wish I would have "worked" longer. That takes us to how we define work, which in truth is not a job but rather that which we most like to do, where to spend or invest our time, talent and energy. Many of us came to this realization in our early 60's, some much earlier. And yes, the specter of consumer capitalism looms large. You two have the advantage of discovering how to make the transition earlier rather than later. Kudos to both!
Living more slowly, consciously and intentionally, with more joy and and contentment, are gifts we get to celebrate every day. Your personal values and beliefs can be in or out of alignment with how you live, where you live and who you are. Some decisions that may look radical to others, like quitting a job or a career or moving to another country are merely being honest with ourselves about how we want to spend our lives.
Sorry you lost all the likes and comments! Let's repopulate this page!
I loved this conversation and so much resonated with my experience. And I have to put my hand up and say, "Australia too!" I'm a dual citizen - British and Australian - but I left Australia nearly 35 years ago and the UK nearly 15 years ago. We've lived in lots of different places, most of them considerably less "developed" than my home nations. When I've visited the UK or Australia while living in Palestine or Pakistan or Fiji, I've become so overwhelmed with all the STUFF that's available to buy. How could anyone possibly need so much choice?! Or indeed so much volume? It's definitely taught me to live with less, and importantly, to WANT TO live with less. And now that my husband is retiring and we have the option of going home the thought of returning to the rat race is not one that fills me with joy... We're looking at Indonesia 😊. Thank you for the brilliant conversation.
From a Dutch woman living in London (UK) who has had a squiggly career in order to work less and have more leisure time and who has followed her passion nine years ago: I have ended up working around the clock in my two (!!) relatively successful businesses due to the cost of living crisis. I have a minimalist lifestyle and don’t adhere to many of the hyper-capitalist thoughts (I still wear clothes I bought 17 years ago) but there is no financial space, nor headspace to have a bit of slack. Rent and bills have skyrocketed over the past few years and we are working to pay these and cover the risks of being self-employed. There’s no room for saving to buy and being self-employed makes getting a mortgage a costly and difficult task.
My partner now has ME and is covering his own medical treatments as the NHS is not able to do anything and I’m am on the brink of burn-out, covering costs of therapy myself.
Last summer I decided to stop my latest business in its current form (veterinary hospice) and get a full-time job with my BSc and MSc degrees to find the stability and security we need somewhere outside of the city to also be closer to family and improve Quality of Life.
More than half a year later and I’m still applying to jobs with no end in sight as there are not enough jobs for highly educated people and not enough income to secure a rental elsewhere outside of this manic city (and lifestyle) that sucks you in and won’t let go.
I don’t remember it being so difficult in the Netherlands where I’m from…
Just a reminder that even if you don’t buy shit all the time, are intentional about whether or not to have children/buy a house/get promoted and follow your passion, living in a place that doesn’t support this view will likely not be a sustainable option. Economic situations change by the hands of those who will always (or never?) have enough and perceived social security structures crumble/get broken down. Diplomas are not enough anymore to get a stable income and following your passion can in some cases not be the smartest decision you make.
An old Singaporean friend of mine who owns commercial printing presses in Singapore and the US once said to me in Mandarin, "Get a hobby job," meaning find work you like so much that you'll do it night and day. Time or money won't matter. It's fun. Oh, and one of you should get one other thing. A copy editor.
I could have listened to the two of you talk all day. Thank you for this conversation. I love the attention you're bringing to over-consumerism and how capitalism is ruining so many of us.
I loved this post and I am coming back to comment again because it deserves as much attention as possible! Thanks to both of you ladies for your endlessly good writing and communicating.
That's what I'm saying, slow down!
https://liborsoural.substack.com/p/a-nerdish-ode-to-slowness
https://liborsoural.substack.com/p/am-i-commercially-viable-enough-for
awww sorry you lost the original! LOVED listening to this one. well done, ladies!
Hi everyone,
Thanks to both for sharing ur experiences I went in both countries but only like tourist, so I have no idea what means live in this places.
On the US tv movies I can see how money are seen like the most important thing, I always thought that was normal because if have to pay so much of the sanitary service of course u need a lot of money and a sanitary insurance. Even when I went for holiday I spent time thinking: “ok I selected the right insurance or I have to spent all my money for a bandaid?”.
But I don’t think moving to Italy would be good for everyone, if u work for a brand/factory etc isn’t Italian and u can work for real everywhere in the world you are more than welcome because u will have only the best from Italy. It will be more or less like being on holiday.
If u come here without a job I kindly suggest u another place maybe Spain.
Job contract here are insane it took me really yrs to have a permanent job that isn’t so well paid compared to the US. the same brand offer a salary of 2714$ (2479,79€) in US. and in Italy I’m my salary barely go over the 1000€ and I’m a store leader.
I worked for yrs for different brand and in some of them ur private life didn’t exist, u are contacted almost 24/24h I remember that I was hired to start a mobile project for a big brand and I was the only one knowing this world. No one of the staff wanted to learn to do those things. I tried to training them during the working hours but at the end everyone started calling me on each moment of the day. Once the store manager called me when I was waiting the bus to go to my mum, so the phone call started before to picking the bus, it continued when I was with my mum and it continued when I was having breakfast at the coffee shop. Then in the morning he contacted me again to talk with an Eng. customer and again with other problems.
The same happens very less luckily where I work now even when I’m off or on holiday I receive anyway a lot of messages and sometimes I can’t not answer.
For another brand I worked 60h a week with only one day off.
In Riviera Romagnola one of the sea zone in Emilia Romagna people works like crazy for 3-4 months working like waiter, chef, receptionist etc. they don’t have day off and are payed 1500-600€ per month (1700$ more or less) but the good thing is that after they have 8-9month of holiday.
Also a lot of brand let u without work or don’t hired u if with u say: “I’m pregnant” or “I have 1/2/3 kids” true story unluckily.
What is different is our mentality, we know that our government don’t take care of the country properly, we can count on the savings of our family members but aren’t so much so we have to save money so maybe new generations would have less problems or would have the change to go to other countries.
We are extremely realistic and like our grandparents we take care of our stuff, like only a crazy people would change the car frequently, or we try upcycling more things possible (this comes from our grandparents) and we know that we are mortal that mean every second counts and we want spending it with our family and friends this part is more a rollercoaster because the time changes with our work but there is always family first and that comes the others.
And of course the sanitary system isn’t always perfect but it works well and it’s almost free or cheap. If u go to private doc of course it’s expensive but u haven’t to sell the house to cure yourself, last summer I spent almost 5000€ for private surgery but I couldn’t wait my turn for the public sanitary service.
I still think that with a better government Italy could be the best country ever we have everything sea, beaches, art, story, creativity, medical care and resource it’s simply impressive. Still in 2024 people from the south move to north to find better work conditions; and the majority move to other countries to find better conditions.
The brother of a friend is a pediatric surgeon but in Italy was impossible finding a job he had to move in UK where he found immediately a job. Another friend moved to Spain where he published his first album and he is an university professor in Madrid, another one still in Spain opened a poke bar in Italy was impossible for her because taxes are insanely crazy.
I wrote a comment last time but maybe this gives a different perspective about working here that is more useful. I understand the point and thanks a lot Leyla to made me understand the prospective also of Uk.
Life is about how we use this precious gift of time and what choices we create to transition to a life-style we might prefer rather than the one we've been living. I know few people, regardless of age, who say, I wish I would have "worked" longer. That takes us to how we define work, which in truth is not a job but rather that which we most like to do, where to spend or invest our time, talent and energy. Many of us came to this realization in our early 60's, some much earlier. And yes, the specter of consumer capitalism looms large. You two have the advantage of discovering how to make the transition earlier rather than later. Kudos to both!
Living more slowly, consciously and intentionally, with more joy and and contentment, are gifts we get to celebrate every day. Your personal values and beliefs can be in or out of alignment with how you live, where you live and who you are. Some decisions that may look radical to others, like quitting a job or a career or moving to another country are merely being honest with ourselves about how we want to spend our lives.
Sorry you lost all the likes and comments! Let's repopulate this page!
I loved this conversation and so much resonated with my experience. And I have to put my hand up and say, "Australia too!" I'm a dual citizen - British and Australian - but I left Australia nearly 35 years ago and the UK nearly 15 years ago. We've lived in lots of different places, most of them considerably less "developed" than my home nations. When I've visited the UK or Australia while living in Palestine or Pakistan or Fiji, I've become so overwhelmed with all the STUFF that's available to buy. How could anyone possibly need so much choice?! Or indeed so much volume? It's definitely taught me to live with less, and importantly, to WANT TO live with less. And now that my husband is retiring and we have the option of going home the thought of returning to the rat race is not one that fills me with joy... We're looking at Indonesia 😊. Thank you for the brilliant conversation.
From a Dutch woman living in London (UK) who has had a squiggly career in order to work less and have more leisure time and who has followed her passion nine years ago: I have ended up working around the clock in my two (!!) relatively successful businesses due to the cost of living crisis. I have a minimalist lifestyle and don’t adhere to many of the hyper-capitalist thoughts (I still wear clothes I bought 17 years ago) but there is no financial space, nor headspace to have a bit of slack. Rent and bills have skyrocketed over the past few years and we are working to pay these and cover the risks of being self-employed. There’s no room for saving to buy and being self-employed makes getting a mortgage a costly and difficult task.
My partner now has ME and is covering his own medical treatments as the NHS is not able to do anything and I’m am on the brink of burn-out, covering costs of therapy myself.
Last summer I decided to stop my latest business in its current form (veterinary hospice) and get a full-time job with my BSc and MSc degrees to find the stability and security we need somewhere outside of the city to also be closer to family and improve Quality of Life.
More than half a year later and I’m still applying to jobs with no end in sight as there are not enough jobs for highly educated people and not enough income to secure a rental elsewhere outside of this manic city (and lifestyle) that sucks you in and won’t let go.
I don’t remember it being so difficult in the Netherlands where I’m from…
Just a reminder that even if you don’t buy shit all the time, are intentional about whether or not to have children/buy a house/get promoted and follow your passion, living in a place that doesn’t support this view will likely not be a sustainable option. Economic situations change by the hands of those who will always (or never?) have enough and perceived social security structures crumble/get broken down. Diplomas are not enough anymore to get a stable income and following your passion can in some cases not be the smartest decision you make.
Rant over.
An old Singaporean friend of mine who owns commercial printing presses in Singapore and the US once said to me in Mandarin, "Get a hobby job," meaning find work you like so much that you'll do it night and day. Time or money won't matter. It's fun. Oh, and one of you should get one other thing. A copy editor.