Thanks for writing this. I am a transplant to liberal New England from a conservative south. My learning experience has been the opposite of yours. The rigidity of the "southern church where everyone must attend" bothered me deeply. When I moved here - outside of Boston to teach in an incredibly liberal boarding school - my faith deepened. I saw Christians who 100% disagreed with the hot-button issues, but like me, followed Jesus. You might not want to write more about this, but my journey deepened my faith, and yours did the opposite. If you want to write, I am genuinely curious about how you understand Jesus now. The Christian world-view: the world is fallen and Jesus came to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven - now in part and later in full, resonates with me to my core. Thanks for writing and thanks for reading this.
I’m not sure we had a different experience. Evangelicalism in the end almost destroyed my faith. It was rescued by Richard Rohr and other progressive Christian thinkers. I would say I’m spiritual not religious but that Christianity is my container — but I don’t believe it’s the “one true way”
A really good article and I appreciate the tensions. I came into Christianity through the evangelical door but would not class myself as one now, and no longer attend any church, haven't for some time. But there is much about evangelical faith that is really good, and many pastors and writers in the fold that are quite brilliant and insightful.
I am quite curious about the question asked above.
Who do you think Jesus is now? Was he a guy, not divine, but just very plugged into God? Was he both plugged into God and divine, part of the Godhead?
I personally take the latter view, though I have many questions, based on the stories I read/view about people who have encounters w/Jesus in our present day.
At the same time I don't think all people who aren't Christian are going to be sent to Hell when they die. Hell itself being a very problematic concept, but one Jesus seemed to posit as a genuine danger.
I do think that John's gospel is a 'faith document' that gives us creative material about Jesus, but tend to rate the synoptics as pretty good (though not inerrant) recountings of some of Jesus' words and deeds.
Not to pry and not asking this as a challenge or a way to launch into a sermon about my view of doctrine, but I am curious about your present view of Jesus.
Thanks, Kirsten. I cannot identify myself with evangelicalism anymore, though Tim Keller has given me a blueprint for life among them. I identify more as a contemplative Christian, as described by Fr. Richard Rohr. He shows us a way of transcending dogma and binaries. I will not allow my beliefs to be containerized by others, but trust myself to live and love like Jesus would have me live.
Thank you for sharing your personal story of your encounter with the dear Keller’s and their Christian community. I too have greatly benefited from Tim’s teaching, especially his emphases on grace. I also respect his authenticity regarding his views on many subjects, most of which I agree with, but not all. I’ll miss his voice, for sure, and his wisdom on a wide range of contemporary issues.
Thank for this Kirsten. I have a similar story with Tim. At one point I was supposed to be the founder of the Redeemer of the west coast... a title I never wanted. After planting a church of ~2000 attenders in San Francisco, I left the denomination Tim and I were a part of... over women's ordination. Then 10 years later, changed our church to affirming of LGBTQ. Our church was cut in half but of course, zero regrets. And Father Rohr changed my life in 2012 when I read Falling Upward. Like you, I've had the privilege of personal time with Father Rohr, what an amazing human being. I wrote about Tim Keller here if you are interested. https://fredharrell.substack.com/p/tim-keller-and-me
Kirsten, I appreciate your candor and your thoughtfulness in writing about Tim Keller. I found Tim through his writings, especially his book "The Prodigal God." It remains the interpretation of the Luke parable that continues to resonate with me.
I would hardly be called as an evangelical Christian by anyone who knows me. What I have learned over these many years is that faithful people do and say things that might rankle us, but if we marinate in that "rankling" it uncovers yet another aspect of God.
None of us can know God -- really. So, I listen to what others say and weave it into my understanding of God. Tim Keller helped me to do that -- and I will remain eternally grateful for his life and his ministry, even as it differs from my own.
Ms Kirsten: My pastor heart continues to grieve for your experiences of evangelicalism. I am technically not an “evangelical” in the American 20th and 21st Century flavor, but nonetheless I am totally committed to the Lutheran expression of the Christian faith. I know: DUH! My name is a a hyphenated (on Facebook, anyway, Padre-Dave. Having served in the military as a medic, I was “doc”, now “padre” is the nickname that has stuck for the past 30 or so years. Like Tim Keller, I am “confessional”, that is I subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions of the 16th Century as an accurate statement of the faith propositions that emerged from the Reformation. Tim Keller subscribed to the confessions of the later English Reformation.
So, the primary danger of American evangelicalism, from my viewpoint, is that no one can know what “confession” a given “Community Church” believes by looking at the sign out front. So, walking into a Presbyterian church you were perhaps not sure what you were walking into. Now, to take blame for other muddledness walking into a Lutheran Church in the USA in the 21st Century can cause some confusion as well. I mean, the parish church i serve in Chandler AZ has what appears to be 2 totally different churches, and in separate buildings at that. But the reality is that the same message in the sermon is preached by the same Pastor in both buildings. The difference is that I am vested in alb and stole, and the music is lead by a magnificent organ played by a very skilled organist. The other building finds the Pastor vested in an open collar dress shirt and sport coat. They appear totally different, but at the same time they are the same....except when I am preaching because I never preach the same sermon, ever.
You write of your deep affection towards Pastor Tim’s wife, which is awesome. What you had was a relationship between Pastor/Teacher and you in your life. That is beautiful! That being said, you know that relationships change over time. Sometimes relationships end, and we grieve that loss. Perhaps your grief over what was at the church in New York is now coming to a close with Pastor Tim’s death; I pray you can reframe it as you move to the next place God has for you in your walk “on the backside” of life. I’m 20 years ahead of you on that backside of life, and I want to assure you that this can be the best side of life. It certainly is for me, and my prayer for you is that this side of your life be guided by the Holy Spirit into new and renewed ways of living this gift of life!
Excellent! On point! Human relationships are complex, indeed...second-ed, underlined, italicized, bold font-ed, etc., etc.! But we don't need to condemn human nature, and humanity, and my own 'body & soul' to gain favor (hypocritically, of course) with the 'unknown divine' as a bargain chip for favoritism for my "salvation'.
Good morning all... I am sorry to hear of Mr. Kellers passing. I never heard of him, but it sounds like he was a good person. My condolences to his family. .. I also never heard of 'transcend & include'. I Know there is more to your thoughts this this morning, but thank you for this. I like the idea of taking what is good from an experience or from a relationship/friendship and keeping it with you, as you say, "move on to the next chapter in our lives" I like it ... thx-Alex.
Kristin, I too had great admiration for Tim Keller. I had a private dinner with him once, listened to him often and read almost everything he wrote with both anticipation and appreciation. He was a genuinely thoughtful, honest, humble and godly man. I too have some disagreement with his denomination’s stance on primarily the issues of sexuality such as you list. These “evangelical” positions though have also been largely held by Jewish, Islamic and the Christian church for centuries. This doesn’t mean that they are necessarily right but it is dangerous to too easily dismiss what millions of deep religious people have believed throughout history as wrong because of our recent and rather fluid enlightenment about our sexual identities under various social pressures.
Consequently, I extend grace to those like Tim who have tried to be true to a divine authority (the Bible) as best they could understand it and not just rely on their own individual preferences and interpretations. I have less grace for those who judgmentally impose these convictions on others which is what you are saying as well. But I don’t think Tim was one of those people. He lived and taught with great personal and spiritual integrity.
So although I agree with your reactions to various evangelical beliefs and practices, my feelings about Tim are not complicated. He was full of grace and truth - like what was said of Jesus - although many had and still have complicated feelings about Jesus as well!
People believed slavery was God's will and totally fine for all of humanity. What does that prove? Christians (or any religion) pointing to past oppression for evidence that it was right or okay or shouldn't be questioned is highly problematic and illogical. The only danger i see is the danger to people who are harmed by oppressive beliefs especially when they are cloaked in religiosity which is meant to make them unquestionable.
PS I understand the linkage between slavery and other oppressive beliefs. Human beings of all religious and non-religious persuasions (think of the great secular libertarian Thomas Jefferson) have justified slavery. But it was evangelical Christians like Wilberforce in England and abolitionist pastors in our country who led the fight against slavery. So my plea is not to question all evangelicals like Tim Keller who try to live according to their careful understanding of God and the Bible as applied in our culture today. Most evangelicals I know are against the oppression of others and are sincerely wrestling with sexuality issues in a way that honors God and neighbor.
Yes. The fact some people believed that slavery was okay means nothing. Some people are going to twist their theology to justify whatever they're doing.
Since it's the major point of tension between modern day culture and Christianity, the questions about whether being gay is a sin are important ones. When I first became a Christian I just assumed gay people needed God, and if they "became Christians" He would somehow sort them out. But I read too many accounts of gays who sincerely tried (much harder than I tried to be a Christian) but could not change their orientation. At this point I leave the question unresolved. That's between the gay person and God and I don't have any problem being around gay people and am certainly glad that gays have been liberated from the unChristian persecution, harassment and condemnation that once came their way.
Thank you for sharing this. My experience with the evangelical church has been far more positive than yours, and I'm sorry you had negative experiences.
Thanks for writing this. I am a transplant to liberal New England from a conservative south. My learning experience has been the opposite of yours. The rigidity of the "southern church where everyone must attend" bothered me deeply. When I moved here - outside of Boston to teach in an incredibly liberal boarding school - my faith deepened. I saw Christians who 100% disagreed with the hot-button issues, but like me, followed Jesus. You might not want to write more about this, but my journey deepened my faith, and yours did the opposite. If you want to write, I am genuinely curious about how you understand Jesus now. The Christian world-view: the world is fallen and Jesus came to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven - now in part and later in full, resonates with me to my core. Thanks for writing and thanks for reading this.
I’m not sure we had a different experience. Evangelicalism in the end almost destroyed my faith. It was rescued by Richard Rohr and other progressive Christian thinkers. I would say I’m spiritual not religious but that Christianity is my container — but I don’t believe it’s the “one true way”
A really good article and I appreciate the tensions. I came into Christianity through the evangelical door but would not class myself as one now, and no longer attend any church, haven't for some time. But there is much about evangelical faith that is really good, and many pastors and writers in the fold that are quite brilliant and insightful.
I am quite curious about the question asked above.
Who do you think Jesus is now? Was he a guy, not divine, but just very plugged into God? Was he both plugged into God and divine, part of the Godhead?
I personally take the latter view, though I have many questions, based on the stories I read/view about people who have encounters w/Jesus in our present day.
At the same time I don't think all people who aren't Christian are going to be sent to Hell when they die. Hell itself being a very problematic concept, but one Jesus seemed to posit as a genuine danger.
I do think that John's gospel is a 'faith document' that gives us creative material about Jesus, but tend to rate the synoptics as pretty good (though not inerrant) recountings of some of Jesus' words and deeds.
Not to pry and not asking this as a challenge or a way to launch into a sermon about my view of doctrine, but I am curious about your present view of Jesus.
I think the answer to your question is "i don't know." I'm still sorting that out. Stay tuned!
Thanks, Kirsten. I cannot identify myself with evangelicalism anymore, though Tim Keller has given me a blueprint for life among them. I identify more as a contemplative Christian, as described by Fr. Richard Rohr. He shows us a way of transcending dogma and binaries. I will not allow my beliefs to be containerized by others, but trust myself to live and love like Jesus would have me live.
Thank you for sharing your personal story of your encounter with the dear Keller’s and their Christian community. I too have greatly benefited from Tim’s teaching, especially his emphases on grace. I also respect his authenticity regarding his views on many subjects, most of which I agree with, but not all. I’ll miss his voice, for sure, and his wisdom on a wide range of contemporary issues.
Thank for this Kirsten. I have a similar story with Tim. At one point I was supposed to be the founder of the Redeemer of the west coast... a title I never wanted. After planting a church of ~2000 attenders in San Francisco, I left the denomination Tim and I were a part of... over women's ordination. Then 10 years later, changed our church to affirming of LGBTQ. Our church was cut in half but of course, zero regrets. And Father Rohr changed my life in 2012 when I read Falling Upward. Like you, I've had the privilege of personal time with Father Rohr, what an amazing human being. I wrote about Tim Keller here if you are interested. https://fredharrell.substack.com/p/tim-keller-and-me
Thank you for sharing about your journey following your conscience even tho you knew it would cost you 🙏
We have a mutual friend in Jonathan Merritt 🤓
Transparency, candor, and grace all wrapped into an honest story about how Tim and Kathy impacted you. Thank you.
😍
Kirsten, I appreciate your candor and your thoughtfulness in writing about Tim Keller. I found Tim through his writings, especially his book "The Prodigal God." It remains the interpretation of the Luke parable that continues to resonate with me.
I would hardly be called as an evangelical Christian by anyone who knows me. What I have learned over these many years is that faithful people do and say things that might rankle us, but if we marinate in that "rankling" it uncovers yet another aspect of God.
None of us can know God -- really. So, I listen to what others say and weave it into my understanding of God. Tim Keller helped me to do that -- and I will remain eternally grateful for his life and his ministry, even as it differs from my own.
Brilliant. Many similar feelings about Tim. Still wondering if life's spiritual dimension is relevant to ANY human religions.
Ms Kirsten: My pastor heart continues to grieve for your experiences of evangelicalism. I am technically not an “evangelical” in the American 20th and 21st Century flavor, but nonetheless I am totally committed to the Lutheran expression of the Christian faith. I know: DUH! My name is a a hyphenated (on Facebook, anyway, Padre-Dave. Having served in the military as a medic, I was “doc”, now “padre” is the nickname that has stuck for the past 30 or so years. Like Tim Keller, I am “confessional”, that is I subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions of the 16th Century as an accurate statement of the faith propositions that emerged from the Reformation. Tim Keller subscribed to the confessions of the later English Reformation.
So, the primary danger of American evangelicalism, from my viewpoint, is that no one can know what “confession” a given “Community Church” believes by looking at the sign out front. So, walking into a Presbyterian church you were perhaps not sure what you were walking into. Now, to take blame for other muddledness walking into a Lutheran Church in the USA in the 21st Century can cause some confusion as well. I mean, the parish church i serve in Chandler AZ has what appears to be 2 totally different churches, and in separate buildings at that. But the reality is that the same message in the sermon is preached by the same Pastor in both buildings. The difference is that I am vested in alb and stole, and the music is lead by a magnificent organ played by a very skilled organist. The other building finds the Pastor vested in an open collar dress shirt and sport coat. They appear totally different, but at the same time they are the same....except when I am preaching because I never preach the same sermon, ever.
You write of your deep affection towards Pastor Tim’s wife, which is awesome. What you had was a relationship between Pastor/Teacher and you in your life. That is beautiful! That being said, you know that relationships change over time. Sometimes relationships end, and we grieve that loss. Perhaps your grief over what was at the church in New York is now coming to a close with Pastor Tim’s death; I pray you can reframe it as you move to the next place God has for you in your walk “on the backside” of life. I’m 20 years ahead of you on that backside of life, and I want to assure you that this can be the best side of life. It certainly is for me, and my prayer for you is that this side of your life be guided by the Holy Spirit into new and renewed ways of living this gift of life!
Excellent! On point! Human relationships are complex, indeed...second-ed, underlined, italicized, bold font-ed, etc., etc.! But we don't need to condemn human nature, and humanity, and my own 'body & soul' to gain favor (hypocritically, of course) with the 'unknown divine' as a bargain chip for favoritism for my "salvation'.
Thank you so much!
Good morning all... I am sorry to hear of Mr. Kellers passing. I never heard of him, but it sounds like he was a good person. My condolences to his family. .. I also never heard of 'transcend & include'. I Know there is more to your thoughts this this morning, but thank you for this. I like the idea of taking what is good from an experience or from a relationship/friendship and keeping it with you, as you say, "move on to the next chapter in our lives" I like it ... thx-Alex.
Kristin, I too had great admiration for Tim Keller. I had a private dinner with him once, listened to him often and read almost everything he wrote with both anticipation and appreciation. He was a genuinely thoughtful, honest, humble and godly man. I too have some disagreement with his denomination’s stance on primarily the issues of sexuality such as you list. These “evangelical” positions though have also been largely held by Jewish, Islamic and the Christian church for centuries. This doesn’t mean that they are necessarily right but it is dangerous to too easily dismiss what millions of deep religious people have believed throughout history as wrong because of our recent and rather fluid enlightenment about our sexual identities under various social pressures.
Consequently, I extend grace to those like Tim who have tried to be true to a divine authority (the Bible) as best they could understand it and not just rely on their own individual preferences and interpretations. I have less grace for those who judgmentally impose these convictions on others which is what you are saying as well. But I don’t think Tim was one of those people. He lived and taught with great personal and spiritual integrity.
So although I agree with your reactions to various evangelical beliefs and practices, my feelings about Tim are not complicated. He was full of grace and truth - like what was said of Jesus - although many had and still have complicated feelings about Jesus as well!
People believed slavery was God's will and totally fine for all of humanity. What does that prove? Christians (or any religion) pointing to past oppression for evidence that it was right or okay or shouldn't be questioned is highly problematic and illogical. The only danger i see is the danger to people who are harmed by oppressive beliefs especially when they are cloaked in religiosity which is meant to make them unquestionable.
I agree with you and I think Tim would too!
PS I understand the linkage between slavery and other oppressive beliefs. Human beings of all religious and non-religious persuasions (think of the great secular libertarian Thomas Jefferson) have justified slavery. But it was evangelical Christians like Wilberforce in England and abolitionist pastors in our country who led the fight against slavery. So my plea is not to question all evangelicals like Tim Keller who try to live according to their careful understanding of God and the Bible as applied in our culture today. Most evangelicals I know are against the oppression of others and are sincerely wrestling with sexuality issues in a way that honors God and neighbor.
Yes. The fact some people believed that slavery was okay means nothing. Some people are going to twist their theology to justify whatever they're doing.
Since it's the major point of tension between modern day culture and Christianity, the questions about whether being gay is a sin are important ones. When I first became a Christian I just assumed gay people needed God, and if they "became Christians" He would somehow sort them out. But I read too many accounts of gays who sincerely tried (much harder than I tried to be a Christian) but could not change their orientation. At this point I leave the question unresolved. That's between the gay person and God and I don't have any problem being around gay people and am certainly glad that gays have been liberated from the unChristian persecution, harassment and condemnation that once came their way.
Thank you for your remembrance and the account of your struggles. It is my hope that you will carry on in faith.
Thank you for sharing this. My experience with the evangelical church has been far more positive than yours, and I'm sorry you had negative experiences.