First question, Kirsten, is, where have you been all my life? lol... THIS! Yes! I feel every word you've written here as I painfully await retirement from my government job in about five years (which, I realize, isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things, but I started feeling this way over ten years ago). I rarely complain about it aloud because most people would kill for this job. It felt like such a "first-world problem" to complain when others are not so fortunate. Plus, I felt like I had painted myself into a corner with this particular position with no real way out (that's a whole other story).
I have finally accepted where I am, and I am okay waiting it out (unless something truly phenomenal drops into my lap). After reading Barbara Sher's books I see it now as my "good enough" job because it does allow me enormous freedom to pursue my true interests and to prep for my retirement career. So there's that.
But I believe this notion of winners don't quit is also hugely perpetuated in social media, where people only present themselves as enormously successful (whatever that success may mean, but usually fame, fortune, and followers), and they only got there via blood, sweat, and tears. Never give up! Never surrender! Once I quit Twitter, and most recently, Instagram, this notion of never giving up has completely left my life - and I couldn't be happier! Maybe that's what we need more of - quitting social media - and mass media - as a whole! :-)
As always, thank you for the essay. I will be sharing with some friends who definitely feel the same.
I completely relate to what you are saying about feeling ungrateful b/c other people would love your job. That was one of the hardest things for me. I think if you have freedom in your job and space to do things you want to do, then that is a real gift, even if you don't love the job. Also, government benefits are really great, and it can be worth waiting it out. My CNN job came only with a salary; no benefits. Also, in my case, there was no freedom or space bc the job was all-consuming, and being in the public eye at that level was beyond draining for me. I was always exhausted from the attacks and complaining from strangers and the misogyny etc etc. If it hadn't been draining me, I would have figured out a way to make it work. And I'm glad what I'm writing is resonating with you. Thanks for being here and for sharing with your friends. That's the highest compliment!
Remember all the backlash Simone Biles got when she pulled out of competition during the Olympics? That was a huge “quitters never win” moment, from so many comments I saw about her.
In my first job, I was a proofreader at an ad agency. I was at a wedding and the priest who conducted the ceremony asked me during the reception what my job was. I told him, and he said something like, “Pamela, is that really the kind of work that’s right for you?” And he was RIGHT, even though he and I hadn’t met before the wedding. I’ll never forget that. I was in my early 20s.
Oh yes! Exactly! She did what was healthy for her, and boy, did that make people mad. And on the job that wasn't aligned -- unfortunately that's what so many of us do :-)
Kirsten, thanks for your personal and reflective wisdom on unhealthy attachments in our lives. The “winners never quit” mantra is often applied to athletes but life really should not be like a football game of winners and losers! I do think there is a difference though between quitting and letting go even if the result is the same. To me, letting go of something is discerning the internal hold that something has on us in terms of unhealthy compulsions like pride, glory or money. Your CNN situation fits into this category and I honor you for recognizing this. Quitting though may relate more to getting away from external pressures, difficulties or dislikes like your decision in not running track. Both letting go and quitting have the same result of consciously changing negative circumstances but the motivations and opportunities may be very different.
Also, there is the virtue of perseverance that may keep us in a difficult situation when it feels like it would just be easier to quit. Many companies are held together by long-term employees who have persevered bad changes in management but who care about continuing to serve their customers well. Many professors want to quit teaching because so many students don’t want to learn but they persevere for the students who do. If all of our civil servants and representatives in government didn’t want to persevere in their jobs but quit because of political dysfunction, how could we govern ourselves?
You raise complex issues of personal well-being that often get tangled up in circumstances and relationships and the “common good.” I don’t think there are easy or automatic answers for everyone but discerning between letting go, quitting and persevering might be a helpful place to start. Thanks for doing this in your candid writing.
God I’m so terrible at this very thing. But oh how it’s come up for me time and time again. Sometimes I can not “be the change I wish to see” and continuing to try and force something that is not meant to be only prolongs the suffering. As always thanks for the wisdom and reminder, Kirsten. I’m so glad you are doing this substack it’s one of the few things on the internet I really look forward to reading.
This speaks to me on so many levels. As always, THANKYOU. And congratulations on taking the leap! Having made the choice myself years ago to leave a great job in a great town to move to a small farming village in Northern Thailand, I concur, although of course it's hard to leap far from the comfort zone into the wild unknown, it is what we are ultimately all here to do, to expand. The perspectives I have gained since starting over completely, forced to learn a new language, to live in financial poverty, to be the only white guy in a world of Thai and myriad brilliantly colorful indigenous farmers (I wasn't a farmer either at the time of initial arrival) has forged a powerful new perspective that has, I dare say, made me more human. Life in the hyper-capitalist realm of post-truth is soul crushing and I never would have know what another way looked like unless I quit the game I had been taught to play. I have grown to view the rapid rise in depression as a rather appropriate response to the dangerously unnatural lifestyle called "modernity". We need to quit modernity. Civilization is not civilized and we will never realize the depth of this truth until we leap away from it. And might I be so bold as to suggest, we may be at the point historically where leaping boldly from just about ALL our current institutions may be required of us if we are ever going to find a way to clean up the pile of messes we have made. There is sooo much more than the economy, democrat/republican business-as-usual narratives, etc. SO. MUCH. MORE. "Jump, as the old saying goes... and the net will be revealed..."
This theme and the interview with Emily was fantastic, thank you for bringing it to us, Kirsten. I noted right away the truth for me when Emily said., "The things that had the biggest impact on me were almost never things that I started doing. They were more things that I stopped doing." Just last week in the aftermath of my mother's death (ending a struggle with dementia at 87), it was suddenly simple to "quit" something I had long been pondering--which was to switch to publishing my Substack essays once a week rather than twice a week (the second essay being a perk for paid subscribers). I love the writing I do here on Substack but I had made a commitment that in effect was taking time away from what I really wanted to do, which was to work on a novel. For eight months I never missed my twice-weekly publishing schedule. Then my mother died and everything became clearer. It was okay to quit. She believed in my fiction writing more than anyone. She would have urged me to quit the volume of my publishing here had she cognitively been able to advise me. And it hasn't affected my subscriber numbers. I suspect many felt relief, unable to keep up with two missives a week from me! This was a relatively small thing to quit--there are really big decisions ahead of me. I want to quit my corporate writing career, at 64, to devote all my time and attention to essay and fiction writing and travel writing and journalism about topics I care about, or ghostwriting on topics I am passionate about. But it is a scary precipice to jump from when you haven't got enough retirement savings, you've been divorced a year, and you've already been through so much transition. As Emily and you discussed, my spiritual framework helps me on this path. And I can see a plan taking shape, one in which I can finally make my move to Europe by early next year, to southern Spain to be close to my two daughters, in Barcelona and Paris. More quitting ahead and it's yes, a little bit terrifying but also exhilarating.
I’m so sorry about your loss and it’s really beautiful that your mother believed in you so much. I absolutely applaud this decision. Writing twice a week is A LOT. I made a similar decision a few years ago with my USA today column I went from writing weekly to writing every other week and then I went from writing every other week to once a month and then I finally quit not to over spiritualized this, because needing money for retirement is a real thing I do think if you just keep taking steps toward what you feel led to do, things will come together. That’s what happened for me. Just keep taking the next step and eventually you’ll be there. Good luck with a Novel that’s exciting!
What a kind and thoughtful response. Thank you. I know you are right about following the breadcrumbs, one at a time. I’ll get there as long as I stay on the path.
It’s like you were sitting at the table with us last night when we were out for my husband’s birthday! This was one of our many topics!
I’m a serial “starter” and have just in the last few years embraced being a quitter too. My husband, on the other hand, is one of the most steadfast, loyal, wise people you’ll meet (yes, we balance each other very very well.) But for both of us, I think it’s super scary to think of the things we may need to quit, especially when we have others whose lives are dependent on us. (And because health insurance in the states sucks and right now we have great insurance and yet a broken tibia for one of our sons still cost us thousands of dollars). As I’ve said before in comments here, we know we are in a season where we feel changes need to happen for our mental, physical and spiritual health, but navigating how to do that wisely as parents to three small children is tough.
It’s so hard — but I believe your sincere seeking to find a better way will lead to some kind of change and I’m praying for that to happen in the right timing 💜
ABSOLUTELY! Love this, Kirsten, and I had a similar-ish realization a couple of months ago when I heard an interview in which someone noted they really loved walking out of bad movies. I've never been the kind of person to do that - "gotta stay 'til the bitter end!" - but it turned on a lightbulb for me. And, natch, I wrote about it!
Thank you Kirsten for another fascinating column and interview. Quitter…. a very familiar label that I have attached to myself over the years. It wasn’t until my therapist told me that it was okay to change my mind that I began to think of my decisions in a different light. That simple but profound insight helped me to begin to cleanse myself of the notion that I was/am a quitter. All of this feels messy and yet very liberating.
Learning this was extremely liberating for me too. I would stay too long in situations for fear of looking flakey but I realized that some things are just for a season and then it’s time to move on.
KP, so many times your writing hits my heart and soul. So. Many. Times. I quit Texas, the PCA church, and many friends when I moved to the PNW three years ago. It's not utopia, but life is better and different and good. Especially when my partner and I are on his sailboat, chillaxing, reading, resting... Thanks for your words, as always!
You have given another gift in how to frame my journey. As I was reading and listening I reframed the times of the most dramatic transitions in terms of quitting. Some of the biggest changes were not the result of knowing when to quit. Once, I was terminated but not only was I rehired immediately, but I received an overture from a completely different setting, where I thrived for fifteen years. The next was by choice, but external circumstances made the timing right. The next transition was by choice, but again external circumstances made the timing right. The next choice was to retire to care for my wife full time for what turned out to be two years. Then her death resulted in the cessation of that role. I filled that empty space by I leaving the country with my backpack for two months a year for the next ten. Then I chose to move to another city, leaving a warm and loving community. I knew it was time to move from a house in the suburbs of one city to a studio apartment in the urban center of a larger city nearby. After thriving there for four years, I shed everything and started traveling in Europe for all but a few weeks a year. In each case, some more than others, quitting one job/position/career/location, opened more expansive possibilities and speeded up my personal growth. Each time space was opened for something new. I have kept the learnings from each situation and carried them to the next, where I have been drawn to change and adapted to a different setting, . For a long time now, there has been no linear ascendancy to any higher position, just expansion and discovery. I have a lot more processing of what I read/heard in this Substack article to do.
We all experience pain. When the pain leads to negativity and loss it is time to quit. No one should be a slave to a job or relationship that has diminishing returns
First question, Kirsten, is, where have you been all my life? lol... THIS! Yes! I feel every word you've written here as I painfully await retirement from my government job in about five years (which, I realize, isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things, but I started feeling this way over ten years ago). I rarely complain about it aloud because most people would kill for this job. It felt like such a "first-world problem" to complain when others are not so fortunate. Plus, I felt like I had painted myself into a corner with this particular position with no real way out (that's a whole other story).
I have finally accepted where I am, and I am okay waiting it out (unless something truly phenomenal drops into my lap). After reading Barbara Sher's books I see it now as my "good enough" job because it does allow me enormous freedom to pursue my true interests and to prep for my retirement career. So there's that.
But I believe this notion of winners don't quit is also hugely perpetuated in social media, where people only present themselves as enormously successful (whatever that success may mean, but usually fame, fortune, and followers), and they only got there via blood, sweat, and tears. Never give up! Never surrender! Once I quit Twitter, and most recently, Instagram, this notion of never giving up has completely left my life - and I couldn't be happier! Maybe that's what we need more of - quitting social media - and mass media - as a whole! :-)
As always, thank you for the essay. I will be sharing with some friends who definitely feel the same.
I completely relate to what you are saying about feeling ungrateful b/c other people would love your job. That was one of the hardest things for me. I think if you have freedom in your job and space to do things you want to do, then that is a real gift, even if you don't love the job. Also, government benefits are really great, and it can be worth waiting it out. My CNN job came only with a salary; no benefits. Also, in my case, there was no freedom or space bc the job was all-consuming, and being in the public eye at that level was beyond draining for me. I was always exhausted from the attacks and complaining from strangers and the misogyny etc etc. If it hadn't been draining me, I would have figured out a way to make it work. And I'm glad what I'm writing is resonating with you. Thanks for being here and for sharing with your friends. That's the highest compliment!
Remember all the backlash Simone Biles got when she pulled out of competition during the Olympics? That was a huge “quitters never win” moment, from so many comments I saw about her.
In my first job, I was a proofreader at an ad agency. I was at a wedding and the priest who conducted the ceremony asked me during the reception what my job was. I told him, and he said something like, “Pamela, is that really the kind of work that’s right for you?” And he was RIGHT, even though he and I hadn’t met before the wedding. I’ll never forget that. I was in my early 20s.
But I stayed until they fired me, haha.
Thanks for this important topic.
Oh yes! Exactly! She did what was healthy for her, and boy, did that make people mad. And on the job that wasn't aligned -- unfortunately that's what so many of us do :-)
Truth.
Kirsten, thanks for your personal and reflective wisdom on unhealthy attachments in our lives. The “winners never quit” mantra is often applied to athletes but life really should not be like a football game of winners and losers! I do think there is a difference though between quitting and letting go even if the result is the same. To me, letting go of something is discerning the internal hold that something has on us in terms of unhealthy compulsions like pride, glory or money. Your CNN situation fits into this category and I honor you for recognizing this. Quitting though may relate more to getting away from external pressures, difficulties or dislikes like your decision in not running track. Both letting go and quitting have the same result of consciously changing negative circumstances but the motivations and opportunities may be very different.
Also, there is the virtue of perseverance that may keep us in a difficult situation when it feels like it would just be easier to quit. Many companies are held together by long-term employees who have persevered bad changes in management but who care about continuing to serve their customers well. Many professors want to quit teaching because so many students don’t want to learn but they persevere for the students who do. If all of our civil servants and representatives in government didn’t want to persevere in their jobs but quit because of political dysfunction, how could we govern ourselves?
You raise complex issues of personal well-being that often get tangled up in circumstances and relationships and the “common good.” I don’t think there are easy or automatic answers for everyone but discerning between letting go, quitting and persevering might be a helpful place to start. Thanks for doing this in your candid writing.
God I’m so terrible at this very thing. But oh how it’s come up for me time and time again. Sometimes I can not “be the change I wish to see” and continuing to try and force something that is not meant to be only prolongs the suffering. As always thanks for the wisdom and reminder, Kirsten. I’m so glad you are doing this substack it’s one of the few things on the internet I really look forward to reading.
awww that means so much to me! you are very loyal which is a good thing but we need to be loyal to ourselves too ❤️
This speaks to me on so many levels. As always, THANKYOU. And congratulations on taking the leap! Having made the choice myself years ago to leave a great job in a great town to move to a small farming village in Northern Thailand, I concur, although of course it's hard to leap far from the comfort zone into the wild unknown, it is what we are ultimately all here to do, to expand. The perspectives I have gained since starting over completely, forced to learn a new language, to live in financial poverty, to be the only white guy in a world of Thai and myriad brilliantly colorful indigenous farmers (I wasn't a farmer either at the time of initial arrival) has forged a powerful new perspective that has, I dare say, made me more human. Life in the hyper-capitalist realm of post-truth is soul crushing and I never would have know what another way looked like unless I quit the game I had been taught to play. I have grown to view the rapid rise in depression as a rather appropriate response to the dangerously unnatural lifestyle called "modernity". We need to quit modernity. Civilization is not civilized and we will never realize the depth of this truth until we leap away from it. And might I be so bold as to suggest, we may be at the point historically where leaping boldly from just about ALL our current institutions may be required of us if we are ever going to find a way to clean up the pile of messes we have made. There is sooo much more than the economy, democrat/republican business-as-usual narratives, etc. SO. MUCH. MORE. "Jump, as the old saying goes... and the net will be revealed..."
https://gregorypettys.substack.com/
Annie Duke wrote a great book on this, “Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away.” I read it and highly recommend it.
I’ll check it out!
This theme and the interview with Emily was fantastic, thank you for bringing it to us, Kirsten. I noted right away the truth for me when Emily said., "The things that had the biggest impact on me were almost never things that I started doing. They were more things that I stopped doing." Just last week in the aftermath of my mother's death (ending a struggle with dementia at 87), it was suddenly simple to "quit" something I had long been pondering--which was to switch to publishing my Substack essays once a week rather than twice a week (the second essay being a perk for paid subscribers). I love the writing I do here on Substack but I had made a commitment that in effect was taking time away from what I really wanted to do, which was to work on a novel. For eight months I never missed my twice-weekly publishing schedule. Then my mother died and everything became clearer. It was okay to quit. She believed in my fiction writing more than anyone. She would have urged me to quit the volume of my publishing here had she cognitively been able to advise me. And it hasn't affected my subscriber numbers. I suspect many felt relief, unable to keep up with two missives a week from me! This was a relatively small thing to quit--there are really big decisions ahead of me. I want to quit my corporate writing career, at 64, to devote all my time and attention to essay and fiction writing and travel writing and journalism about topics I care about, or ghostwriting on topics I am passionate about. But it is a scary precipice to jump from when you haven't got enough retirement savings, you've been divorced a year, and you've already been through so much transition. As Emily and you discussed, my spiritual framework helps me on this path. And I can see a plan taking shape, one in which I can finally make my move to Europe by early next year, to southern Spain to be close to my two daughters, in Barcelona and Paris. More quitting ahead and it's yes, a little bit terrifying but also exhilarating.
I’m so sorry about your loss and it’s really beautiful that your mother believed in you so much. I absolutely applaud this decision. Writing twice a week is A LOT. I made a similar decision a few years ago with my USA today column I went from writing weekly to writing every other week and then I went from writing every other week to once a month and then I finally quit not to over spiritualized this, because needing money for retirement is a real thing I do think if you just keep taking steps toward what you feel led to do, things will come together. That’s what happened for me. Just keep taking the next step and eventually you’ll be there. Good luck with a Novel that’s exciting!
What a kind and thoughtful response. Thank you. I know you are right about following the breadcrumbs, one at a time. I’ll get there as long as I stay on the path.
It’s like you were sitting at the table with us last night when we were out for my husband’s birthday! This was one of our many topics!
I’m a serial “starter” and have just in the last few years embraced being a quitter too. My husband, on the other hand, is one of the most steadfast, loyal, wise people you’ll meet (yes, we balance each other very very well.) But for both of us, I think it’s super scary to think of the things we may need to quit, especially when we have others whose lives are dependent on us. (And because health insurance in the states sucks and right now we have great insurance and yet a broken tibia for one of our sons still cost us thousands of dollars). As I’ve said before in comments here, we know we are in a season where we feel changes need to happen for our mental, physical and spiritual health, but navigating how to do that wisely as parents to three small children is tough.
It’s so hard — but I believe your sincere seeking to find a better way will lead to some kind of change and I’m praying for that to happen in the right timing 💜
ABSOLUTELY! Love this, Kirsten, and I had a similar-ish realization a couple of months ago when I heard an interview in which someone noted they really loved walking out of bad movies. I've never been the kind of person to do that - "gotta stay 'til the bitter end!" - but it turned on a lightbulb for me. And, natch, I wrote about it!
https://open.substack.com/pub/lukepcollins/p/cut-and-run?r=7jgjd&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Oh that’s me!! I have left soooo many movies
Thank you Kirsten for another fascinating column and interview. Quitter…. a very familiar label that I have attached to myself over the years. It wasn’t until my therapist told me that it was okay to change my mind that I began to think of my decisions in a different light. That simple but profound insight helped me to begin to cleanse myself of the notion that I was/am a quitter. All of this feels messy and yet very liberating.
Learning this was extremely liberating for me too. I would stay too long in situations for fear of looking flakey but I realized that some things are just for a season and then it’s time to move on.
KP, so many times your writing hits my heart and soul. So. Many. Times. I quit Texas, the PCA church, and many friends when I moved to the PNW three years ago. It's not utopia, but life is better and different and good. Especially when my partner and I are on his sailboat, chillaxing, reading, resting... Thanks for your words, as always!
Good for you Jill! I know how hard this choices are.
You have given another gift in how to frame my journey. As I was reading and listening I reframed the times of the most dramatic transitions in terms of quitting. Some of the biggest changes were not the result of knowing when to quit. Once, I was terminated but not only was I rehired immediately, but I received an overture from a completely different setting, where I thrived for fifteen years. The next was by choice, but external circumstances made the timing right. The next transition was by choice, but again external circumstances made the timing right. The next choice was to retire to care for my wife full time for what turned out to be two years. Then her death resulted in the cessation of that role. I filled that empty space by I leaving the country with my backpack for two months a year for the next ten. Then I chose to move to another city, leaving a warm and loving community. I knew it was time to move from a house in the suburbs of one city to a studio apartment in the urban center of a larger city nearby. After thriving there for four years, I shed everything and started traveling in Europe for all but a few weeks a year. In each case, some more than others, quitting one job/position/career/location, opened more expansive possibilities and speeded up my personal growth. Each time space was opened for something new. I have kept the learnings from each situation and carried them to the next, where I have been drawn to change and adapted to a different setting, . For a long time now, there has been no linear ascendancy to any higher position, just expansion and discovery. I have a lot more processing of what I read/heard in this Substack article to do.
Isn’t that amazing? I did a similar look back over my life and I found the same thing. Thank you for sharing your story. It’s extremely inspiring.
One of the best books I’ve read on this topic is Necessary Endings - completely changed my perspective 🙌
Love that book and love Henry cloud
We all experience pain. When the pain leads to negativity and loss it is time to quit. No one should be a slave to a job or relationship that has diminishing returns
I've saved this article/podcast episode and will be returning to it again and again.
Thank you both for your wisdom and generosity 🙏
💜💜💜
Kristen, this is such helpful and hopeful post. It took me many years to let go of my identity within the finance world and I'm so grateful I did.
The anthem for this post has to be Steely Dan's "Deacon Blues"
"They got a name for the winners in the world
(I) I want a name when I lose"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nTMz1P09Uw
Thx David’s!