I cannot and will not desire or look for vengeance. All vengeance belongs to God. Even our concept of justice fails when vengeance becomes part of the equation. I am not a pacifist, I served in the military medical service, but haven’t discharged a weapon since 1971, when I bypassed Air Force Basic Military Training in Texas. When I have thought of the concept of individual vengeance, I reject it as beyond my pay grade. I have and will continue to preach God’s mercy and grace for all, not just who desire it. Not universalism by any means, but without judgment on my own part. Yes, there are dozens of internal inconsistencies in my stand, but God is way beyond our ability to explain it.
there are a few people whom i have legitimately forgiven--close friends whose friendship i knew i could not stand losing; however, for the most part, if someone does something that seriously hurts me, i just let it go and let them go. i don’t need to forgive them, the same way they don’t need my forgiveness. we just need to go our separate ways.
I'm an 8 as well with 5, 3 wings (thinker, motivator) - it is a lot of work judging others with this wiring. Age/wisdom have taught me that once I get to know the other person and actually have a conversation my judgment almost always changes for the better. There are so many social media opportunities to judge a stranger that it is hard not to.
I agree with other commenters here, that judging is not our job. We should let Karma or Christian Beatitudes take their course. In my words, they promise a return on suffering not of their own causing.
Lastly, holding a grudge seems to take a huge emotional toll and no one really cares if they are in our good graces or not. I believe we need to optimize our circle of family which are close to us (some are not), friends, our own character and relationship with our higher power (as we define). That is work enough and I strive to let the annoyances with others beyond that circle go as long as it doesn't threaten the security of those I care for.
Thank for your thoughts Brent. Also it's not possible to have wings that aren't adjacent to your number. So an 8 has either a 9 or 7 wing (or both). I think you may mean that you test as an 8 then a 5 then a 3? Not sure. But you are only one number with one or two wings. The 8 goes to five in stress and 2 in integration, so that's your 5.
“Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.”
Romans 12:19 NIV
“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.” Matthew 18:21-22 NIV
Here’s my take, while at times I have wanted to inflict my wrath of revenge on someone I always come back two these verses. I believe the His vengeance will be more profound and impacting than anything I could ever do. So, I choose to forgive, let it go, and move on. However, this ability only came with age. 😉
For some reason, I just saw this – – I think you’re doing exactly what I was doing which is it’s still vengeful if you expect that God will punish the person. It’s still putting ourselves as the judge who decides who needs to be punished. Interestingly, we rarely think that we need to be punished or that any vengeance is coming our way. There’s always a reason that we did the things that we did but with other people it’s unforgivable and even part of who they are. So, if if we tell a lie, there’s a reason that we had to tell it but if another person lies to us than they are “a liar.”
I’ve always subscribed to the saying that holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. I believe myself to be a 9w1 and am very conflict avoidant which means that my knee jerk reaction it to let go and forgive. And the same time, I continue to work on good boundaries and not be a doormat of “unconditional love”. It seems like a fine line between Judging and discerning. I do believe in taking personal responsibility for my behavior and that there will be consequences for it and so I believe there will be consequences for others behaviors as well. Ultimately I’ve decided it’s not up to me to even imagine what those consequences ought to be by using beginners or don’t know mind. It’s a constant, continued process. I’m really enjoying your writing. Thank you.
Donna I think you hit on an important point, which is that we are all on a different journey. So an 8 is almost definitely going to have to learn how to not be vengeful, whereas that's probably not a struggle for a 9 (unless they had a strong 8 wing, but probably not even then) and if anything the nine might be letting people get away with too much in their desire for peace. I agree it's a fine line between judging and discerning!
One of the concepts I have heard expressed in my faith community is the ability to forget when offering forgiveness. It feels very virtuous to forgive but if you aren’t willing to forget the offense, it still sits in the craw that a wrong was done and expect a wrong will be done again. I have heard some teachers express the concept of forgiving “seventy times seven” as an unending willingness to forgive. I think my spiritual growth occurs when I can truly forget the offense.
yes, I agree with that. I realized that when i was writing my book on grace -- that the goal for me is grace, not forgiveness, because forgiveness puts you above the other person. So just seeing that person through the lens of grace (verses "offering" grace) shifts the dynamic radically. It's very hard!
I wonder if focusing energy on truly forgetting (an inward look at my perspective) is more productive than monitoring for or exacting vengeance ( an outward exercise). Does that exercise create a closer fellowship with God and more personal peace? Suspect I’ll spend the rest of my life working on that.
I don't really believe in "monitoring" for anything, but I do think it's important to bring things out of the unconscious into conscious awareness, which is what happened to me regarding vengeance. It didn't take any energy at all, just an open mind. It give me some information about how big a role my ego is playing--information that is helpful to me, but may not be for others.
Oh I’m going to be sitting with this for AWHILE. I had not looked at religion as a way to outsource vengeance - wow. I’m reflecting on the countless times I’ve left go of something with the dismal of “they will get what’s coming to them”. A ye shall reap what you sow kind of hoped for satisfaction (and also smugness dare I admit). Hell being the ultimate club of Justice. A need for punishment perhaps warped from our desire for fairness? Thanks for the giving me something to chew on.
I just read this in lieu of this weeks post, and it’s been very thought provoking. Not do I only wonder now if I’m an Enneagram 8 but also has made me think about ones upbringing affects ones need for ‘justice’. I had to deal with a lot of injustice in my childhood and being brought up Christian the way I coped as a kid (and adult)was to think that it would all be blown open in the end. It comforted me. It’s the reason I’ve hung on to the concept of an afterlife / because there so much unfinished business - not that I like or even believe now in hell. It’s also made me think about the difference between vengeance and working to undo injustice. Needed this post today so thank you Kirsten and universe!
Glad this was thought provoking! Type One and Type 8 tend to be the most justice focused, though of course any Type can care about injustice. I think the best test if you want to figure out your Type is at CP Enneagram. It's pricey ($45) but it's pretty accurate and you get a detailed report.
I wonder if the kind of vengeance you're describing you have is partly why you are a journalist..... I believe in "you get what you give" and hope all the ugly people out there get their comeuppance, but I am not going to dwell on it. Rotten people have been around for a long time. I going to do my best to hang with the better souls. But as someone stated below, I also do not care to be a "door mat" and allow myself to be walked on .... Lastly, I would hate to find out what true vengeance feels like. because someone I love would have to have been hurt really bad. ... Lastly, Lastly = I'm going to do an enneagram test and see if my number mirrors my 'blue' mood ring color :)
Yes it is 100 percent what drew me not just to journalism, but specifically political journalism. As this need subsided, I stopped feeling drawn to playing the judge and recognized how ego driven that was even though I could justify it (and others justified it) because I was doing the “right” thing.
I'm a little late to this. I read through the comments so hopefully not repeating anything too much. If simply "letting go of resentment and anger" is the correct definition, then yea, always...for myself. But whether you do or don't, the real harm to the relationship is trust and if that's gone, does it even matter if you forgive someone or not? Maybe it's never meant this, but I always assumed forgiveness is something you give someone who actually seeks it. The word never comes out of my mouth without the word "sorry". Is that wrong? Anyway, I haven't paid the $12 yet but want to see if my wife will take the test with me. I strongly suspect I'm a 5 though I seriously question that I hope that I "will be able to rejoin the world and participate in it"...esp. after I turn on the news.
I don’t think it’s wrong or right to want the word “sorry” before you forgive someone. For me I don’t wait for that because often you will never get it — and to not forgive gives that person a foothold in my heart. I forgive for my good, not for the other persons.
I need to try this Enneagram thing. All the other personality tests confused me - I seemed to have a bit of everything. On forgiveness, I’m struggling right now to reconcile with someone with whom I had a huge political falling out (yes election season is regrettably upon us). It got personal and nasty. I also need to apply appropriate boundaries as you explained in your book.
I have found the Enneagram incredibly helpful--it really helps us understand ourselves and others in a non-judgemental way. There is a test at the Enneagram Institute that is pretty good though not 100 percent reliable. My suggestion is to read the different types and narrowing it down that way.
Just finished reading the Ennegram book. Wow. So much spiritual insight and helpful guidance. For me, this is far better than the other personality tests, which frankly left me confused and frustrated. I always knew I had a strong head leaning, but the book helped me to see that I’m also strong on heart (3 and 4) with substantial energy in the “success” and “desire to be different/ eccentric” components. So I’m probably a 4 with strong 3 and 5 characteristics. This is a book that needs to be re-read in order to understand the implications of our leanings and apply the practical recommendations that lead to greater maturity and fulfillment.
Just started reading the Enneagram (Rohr/ Ebert). Love the spiritual focus of the book. I agree with the authors that many branches of Christianity lost some very important spiritual aspects of the faith starting around the fourth century. Things like the centrality of suffering and our attitude towards wealth. I first thought this while undertaking a deep meditation of the gospel of Mark over a period of years.
I heard Ian Cron explain the different types at a conference. He is so entertaining. It struck me as something that might help. Thanks for the tips. I recently purchased the Enneagram book by Richard Rohr, so I’ll start by reading that.
Thanks for the tips. Di & I were also watching Richard Rohr’s presentation on YouTube this morning: The Enneagram (the discernment of spirits). He mentioned that as an Oral Tradition, it helps to listen to someone who truly discerns the energies behind each type, then read the book. He also mentioned that some of the mind types (notably 6) struggle to identify themselves correctly, which might be true in my case. I also find Richard’s insights a refreshing change from the evangelical perspectives that I’m more familiar with.
Kirsten, thanks for your thoughtful reflections. As an E #5 I don’t have as much as an existential pressure for executing vengeance because I can do it all in my mind! But I do find it helpful to let go of even thoughts of vengeance up to God - not as a delegation of what I really want, but as a release from feeling like I am in charge. I don’t have to worry about whether vengeance is carried out or not or in what way. What I also find helpful is trying to pursue both justice and mercy at the same time which takes discernment and humility plus a spirit of forgiveness toward others and myself. I often fail in living out these aspirations but I feel more spiritually at peace than worrying about what happens to others for their failures!
I have worked with many wonderful 8s in my career and what always stands out is that they cannot not lead! What also stands out is the behavior of what Rohr calls “redeemed 8’s” in that they genuinely use their leadership gifts without being controlling of others. I think you are doing that by raising these issues in a humble way without trying to control the result. Press on!
I don't think there's anything wrong with desiring vengeance, it is natural to hate injustice done to you or others. And to see justice inflicted on the perpetrator.
God hates injustice, but if we are following the Biblical injunction to leave vengeance to God (or fate, if you prefer) I don't think that means you are vengeful. God will make the correct decision about what vengeance (or punishment, or instruction, or whatever) is appropriate.
Then again Jesus' call to love your enemies does seem to ask you to have a spirit that does not desire vengeance to be inflicted on the perpetrator and to not enjoy it if it occurs.
I have had the experience where someone has wounded me and (often after praying furiously for vengeance to be inflicted) I started praying FOR the person knowing that was Jesus' teaching, and such praying imparted healing to me though that was not my motivation for praying. Whether that's because the prayer healed the injury to my identity and self-concept done by the other person or because it reunited my spirit to God I do not know.
I think if you are truly releasing the need to God (or a higher power) *maybe* you aren't vengeful but I'm not sure about that, because as I said it requires us to put us above other people. I also think there is a difference between justice and vengeance (per the MLK quote, a person who I believe transcended the need for vengeance to a need for justice). But I need to think more about this. I just have to be honest for me that it is a desire for things to come out they way I believe they should. I'm not talking about someone who murdered someone or who traffics in racism (like Tucker Carlson)...I'm talking about someone who I feel was getting away with fooling people or who wronged me. There is a big difference.
Regarding forgiveness, I find it helpful to think in terms of canceling a debt. I’m struggling with forgiveness right now and it is helpful to think “what specifically did I lose in this encounter? What is driving me mad? What was taken from me? My reputation?”. In my current situation, I don’t think my reputation was diminished. Something else triggered me.....possibly jealousy.
During a death experience in 1992 I had 3 days of intense time with the Lord. There was supernatural aid being given to repair damage I had done to myself by holding in anger and unforgiveness. I was able to forgive and release. Both Old and New Testament speaks of forgiving. In Micah 7:19 God says "He will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea." Because of sin God stated no Moabite would ever enter the Holy place yet Ruth for her faithfulness to Naomi and her God, is in the line that brought forth Jesus. And Jesus and forgiveness are synonymous. I've enjoyed Lebowitz at times but have found her to often be blunt and harsh. No one can truly live a life that is without forgiveness and expect to freely give and receive love with those that matters much less those you don't care for.
I think that she is direct and authentic and honest. And I’ll be honest with you that I think a lot of Christians spiritually bypass and go straight to forgiveness without doing the psychological work that is required to truly forgive someone. I’m not saying this is what you have done. I’m just saying I’ve seen it happen a lot and that I used to do it. And there’s also an element of forgiveness in the way Christians do it that is kind of condescending. Like ‘I’m so good I am forgiving you.’ But even saying that is suggesting that they need to be forgiven and who is deciding that? So we have put ourselves in a place of the judge, who decides who needs to be forgiven and then we dole out the forgiveness. This is why I prefer the idea of Grace which is I just give you space to be you and I don’t judge you. I don’t even need to consciously forgive you bc I accept that I harm ppl all the time without any awareness, and I am constantly being given grace and forgiveness without even knowing it. I don’t know if this makes sense but that’s how I feel and even the idea that Fran Lebowitz couldn’t possibly experience love I just think is misguided especially because she had an incredibly deep friendship with Toni Morrison, and many other people who did deeply love her, and she deeply loved them.
I cannot and will not desire or look for vengeance. All vengeance belongs to God. Even our concept of justice fails when vengeance becomes part of the equation. I am not a pacifist, I served in the military medical service, but haven’t discharged a weapon since 1971, when I bypassed Air Force Basic Military Training in Texas. When I have thought of the concept of individual vengeance, I reject it as beyond my pay grade. I have and will continue to preach God’s mercy and grace for all, not just who desire it. Not universalism by any means, but without judgment on my own part. Yes, there are dozens of internal inconsistencies in my stand, but God is way beyond our ability to explain it.
hella late to this...sorry about that.
there are a few people whom i have legitimately forgiven--close friends whose friendship i knew i could not stand losing; however, for the most part, if someone does something that seriously hurts me, i just let it go and let them go. i don’t need to forgive them, the same way they don’t need my forgiveness. we just need to go our separate ways.
Ah, yes, when I noticed this tendency in myself (and in other people) many years ago, I would tell myself, "Nobody anointed you as Karma Agent." :-)
Haha yeah I have to remind myself I’m not in charge of the universe sometimes
I'm an 8 as well with 5, 3 wings (thinker, motivator) - it is a lot of work judging others with this wiring. Age/wisdom have taught me that once I get to know the other person and actually have a conversation my judgment almost always changes for the better. There are so many social media opportunities to judge a stranger that it is hard not to.
I agree with other commenters here, that judging is not our job. We should let Karma or Christian Beatitudes take their course. In my words, they promise a return on suffering not of their own causing.
Lastly, holding a grudge seems to take a huge emotional toll and no one really cares if they are in our good graces or not. I believe we need to optimize our circle of family which are close to us (some are not), friends, our own character and relationship with our higher power (as we define). That is work enough and I strive to let the annoyances with others beyond that circle go as long as it doesn't threaten the security of those I care for.
Good luck with your journey.
Thank for your thoughts Brent. Also it's not possible to have wings that aren't adjacent to your number. So an 8 has either a 9 or 7 wing (or both). I think you may mean that you test as an 8 then a 5 then a 3? Not sure. But you are only one number with one or two wings. The 8 goes to five in stress and 2 in integration, so that's your 5.
“Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.”
Romans 12:19 NIV
“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.” Matthew 18:21-22 NIV
Here’s my take, while at times I have wanted to inflict my wrath of revenge on someone I always come back two these verses. I believe the His vengeance will be more profound and impacting than anything I could ever do. So, I choose to forgive, let it go, and move on. However, this ability only came with age. 😉
For some reason, I just saw this – – I think you’re doing exactly what I was doing which is it’s still vengeful if you expect that God will punish the person. It’s still putting ourselves as the judge who decides who needs to be punished. Interestingly, we rarely think that we need to be punished or that any vengeance is coming our way. There’s always a reason that we did the things that we did but with other people it’s unforgivable and even part of who they are. So, if if we tell a lie, there’s a reason that we had to tell it but if another person lies to us than they are “a liar.”
I’ve always subscribed to the saying that holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. I believe myself to be a 9w1 and am very conflict avoidant which means that my knee jerk reaction it to let go and forgive. And the same time, I continue to work on good boundaries and not be a doormat of “unconditional love”. It seems like a fine line between Judging and discerning. I do believe in taking personal responsibility for my behavior and that there will be consequences for it and so I believe there will be consequences for others behaviors as well. Ultimately I’ve decided it’s not up to me to even imagine what those consequences ought to be by using beginners or don’t know mind. It’s a constant, continued process. I’m really enjoying your writing. Thank you.
Donna I think you hit on an important point, which is that we are all on a different journey. So an 8 is almost definitely going to have to learn how to not be vengeful, whereas that's probably not a struggle for a 9 (unless they had a strong 8 wing, but probably not even then) and if anything the nine might be letting people get away with too much in their desire for peace. I agree it's a fine line between judging and discerning!
One of the concepts I have heard expressed in my faith community is the ability to forget when offering forgiveness. It feels very virtuous to forgive but if you aren’t willing to forget the offense, it still sits in the craw that a wrong was done and expect a wrong will be done again. I have heard some teachers express the concept of forgiving “seventy times seven” as an unending willingness to forgive. I think my spiritual growth occurs when I can truly forget the offense.
I did enjoy this piece.
yes, I agree with that. I realized that when i was writing my book on grace -- that the goal for me is grace, not forgiveness, because forgiveness puts you above the other person. So just seeing that person through the lens of grace (verses "offering" grace) shifts the dynamic radically. It's very hard!
I wonder if focusing energy on truly forgetting (an inward look at my perspective) is more productive than monitoring for or exacting vengeance ( an outward exercise). Does that exercise create a closer fellowship with God and more personal peace? Suspect I’ll spend the rest of my life working on that.
I don't really believe in "monitoring" for anything, but I do think it's important to bring things out of the unconscious into conscious awareness, which is what happened to me regarding vengeance. It didn't take any energy at all, just an open mind. It give me some information about how big a role my ego is playing--information that is helpful to me, but may not be for others.
Oh I’m going to be sitting with this for AWHILE. I had not looked at religion as a way to outsource vengeance - wow. I’m reflecting on the countless times I’ve left go of something with the dismal of “they will get what’s coming to them”. A ye shall reap what you sow kind of hoped for satisfaction (and also smugness dare I admit). Hell being the ultimate club of Justice. A need for punishment perhaps warped from our desire for fairness? Thanks for the giving me something to chew on.
right? it's really kind of blowing my mind.
I just read this in lieu of this weeks post, and it’s been very thought provoking. Not do I only wonder now if I’m an Enneagram 8 but also has made me think about ones upbringing affects ones need for ‘justice’. I had to deal with a lot of injustice in my childhood and being brought up Christian the way I coped as a kid (and adult)was to think that it would all be blown open in the end. It comforted me. It’s the reason I’ve hung on to the concept of an afterlife / because there so much unfinished business - not that I like or even believe now in hell. It’s also made me think about the difference between vengeance and working to undo injustice. Needed this post today so thank you Kirsten and universe!
Glad this was thought provoking! Type One and Type 8 tend to be the most justice focused, though of course any Type can care about injustice. I think the best test if you want to figure out your Type is at CP Enneagram. It's pricey ($45) but it's pretty accurate and you get a detailed report.
I wonder if the kind of vengeance you're describing you have is partly why you are a journalist..... I believe in "you get what you give" and hope all the ugly people out there get their comeuppance, but I am not going to dwell on it. Rotten people have been around for a long time. I going to do my best to hang with the better souls. But as someone stated below, I also do not care to be a "door mat" and allow myself to be walked on .... Lastly, I would hate to find out what true vengeance feels like. because someone I love would have to have been hurt really bad. ... Lastly, Lastly = I'm going to do an enneagram test and see if my number mirrors my 'blue' mood ring color :)
Yes it is 100 percent what drew me not just to journalism, but specifically political journalism. As this need subsided, I stopped feeling drawn to playing the judge and recognized how ego driven that was even though I could justify it (and others justified it) because I was doing the “right” thing.
I'm a little late to this. I read through the comments so hopefully not repeating anything too much. If simply "letting go of resentment and anger" is the correct definition, then yea, always...for myself. But whether you do or don't, the real harm to the relationship is trust and if that's gone, does it even matter if you forgive someone or not? Maybe it's never meant this, but I always assumed forgiveness is something you give someone who actually seeks it. The word never comes out of my mouth without the word "sorry". Is that wrong? Anyway, I haven't paid the $12 yet but want to see if my wife will take the test with me. I strongly suspect I'm a 5 though I seriously question that I hope that I "will be able to rejoin the world and participate in it"...esp. after I turn on the news.
I don’t think it’s wrong or right to want the word “sorry” before you forgive someone. For me I don’t wait for that because often you will never get it — and to not forgive gives that person a foothold in my heart. I forgive for my good, not for the other persons.
Yea, I just have to reverse my thinking about what forgiveness actually is.
I need to try this Enneagram thing. All the other personality tests confused me - I seemed to have a bit of everything. On forgiveness, I’m struggling right now to reconcile with someone with whom I had a huge political falling out (yes election season is regrettably upon us). It got personal and nasty. I also need to apply appropriate boundaries as you explained in your book.
I have found the Enneagram incredibly helpful--it really helps us understand ourselves and others in a non-judgemental way. There is a test at the Enneagram Institute that is pretty good though not 100 percent reliable. My suggestion is to read the different types and narrowing it down that way.
Just finished reading the Ennegram book. Wow. So much spiritual insight and helpful guidance. For me, this is far better than the other personality tests, which frankly left me confused and frustrated. I always knew I had a strong head leaning, but the book helped me to see that I’m also strong on heart (3 and 4) with substantial energy in the “success” and “desire to be different/ eccentric” components. So I’m probably a 4 with strong 3 and 5 characteristics. This is a book that needs to be re-read in order to understand the implications of our leanings and apply the practical recommendations that lead to greater maturity and fulfillment.
Just started reading the Enneagram (Rohr/ Ebert). Love the spiritual focus of the book. I agree with the authors that many branches of Christianity lost some very important spiritual aspects of the faith starting around the fourth century. Things like the centrality of suffering and our attitude towards wealth. I first thought this while undertaking a deep meditation of the gospel of Mark over a period of years.
I heard Ian Cron explain the different types at a conference. He is so entertaining. It struck me as something that might help. Thanks for the tips. I recently purchased the Enneagram book by Richard Rohr, so I’ll start by reading that.
Love Ian! Also recommend any books by Beatrice Chestnut and Uranio Pais
Thanks for the tips. Di & I were also watching Richard Rohr’s presentation on YouTube this morning: The Enneagram (the discernment of spirits). He mentioned that as an Oral Tradition, it helps to listen to someone who truly discerns the energies behind each type, then read the book. He also mentioned that some of the mind types (notably 6) struggle to identify themselves correctly, which might be true in my case. I also find Richard’s insights a refreshing change from the evangelical perspectives that I’m more familiar with.
Kirsten, thanks for your thoughtful reflections. As an E #5 I don’t have as much as an existential pressure for executing vengeance because I can do it all in my mind! But I do find it helpful to let go of even thoughts of vengeance up to God - not as a delegation of what I really want, but as a release from feeling like I am in charge. I don’t have to worry about whether vengeance is carried out or not or in what way. What I also find helpful is trying to pursue both justice and mercy at the same time which takes discernment and humility plus a spirit of forgiveness toward others and myself. I often fail in living out these aspirations but I feel more spiritually at peace than worrying about what happens to others for their failures!
Thank your for your reflections--I think as an 8 I have a lot more to learn about the fact that I'm actually not in charge :-)
I have worked with many wonderful 8s in my career and what always stands out is that they cannot not lead! What also stands out is the behavior of what Rohr calls “redeemed 8’s” in that they genuinely use their leadership gifts without being controlling of others. I think you are doing that by raising these issues in a humble way without trying to control the result. Press on!
I don't think there's anything wrong with desiring vengeance, it is natural to hate injustice done to you or others. And to see justice inflicted on the perpetrator.
God hates injustice, but if we are following the Biblical injunction to leave vengeance to God (or fate, if you prefer) I don't think that means you are vengeful. God will make the correct decision about what vengeance (or punishment, or instruction, or whatever) is appropriate.
Then again Jesus' call to love your enemies does seem to ask you to have a spirit that does not desire vengeance to be inflicted on the perpetrator and to not enjoy it if it occurs.
I have had the experience where someone has wounded me and (often after praying furiously for vengeance to be inflicted) I started praying FOR the person knowing that was Jesus' teaching, and such praying imparted healing to me though that was not my motivation for praying. Whether that's because the prayer healed the injury to my identity and self-concept done by the other person or because it reunited my spirit to God I do not know.
I think if you are truly releasing the need to God (or a higher power) *maybe* you aren't vengeful but I'm not sure about that, because as I said it requires us to put us above other people. I also think there is a difference between justice and vengeance (per the MLK quote, a person who I believe transcended the need for vengeance to a need for justice). But I need to think more about this. I just have to be honest for me that it is a desire for things to come out they way I believe they should. I'm not talking about someone who murdered someone or who traffics in racism (like Tucker Carlson)...I'm talking about someone who I feel was getting away with fooling people or who wronged me. There is a big difference.
Regarding forgiveness, I find it helpful to think in terms of canceling a debt. I’m struggling with forgiveness right now and it is helpful to think “what specifically did I lose in this encounter? What is driving me mad? What was taken from me? My reputation?”. In my current situation, I don’t think my reputation was diminished. Something else triggered me.....possibly jealousy.
During a death experience in 1992 I had 3 days of intense time with the Lord. There was supernatural aid being given to repair damage I had done to myself by holding in anger and unforgiveness. I was able to forgive and release. Both Old and New Testament speaks of forgiving. In Micah 7:19 God says "He will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea." Because of sin God stated no Moabite would ever enter the Holy place yet Ruth for her faithfulness to Naomi and her God, is in the line that brought forth Jesus. And Jesus and forgiveness are synonymous. I've enjoyed Lebowitz at times but have found her to often be blunt and harsh. No one can truly live a life that is without forgiveness and expect to freely give and receive love with those that matters much less those you don't care for.
I think that she is direct and authentic and honest. And I’ll be honest with you that I think a lot of Christians spiritually bypass and go straight to forgiveness without doing the psychological work that is required to truly forgive someone. I’m not saying this is what you have done. I’m just saying I’ve seen it happen a lot and that I used to do it. And there’s also an element of forgiveness in the way Christians do it that is kind of condescending. Like ‘I’m so good I am forgiving you.’ But even saying that is suggesting that they need to be forgiven and who is deciding that? So we have put ourselves in a place of the judge, who decides who needs to be forgiven and then we dole out the forgiveness. This is why I prefer the idea of Grace which is I just give you space to be you and I don’t judge you. I don’t even need to consciously forgive you bc I accept that I harm ppl all the time without any awareness, and I am constantly being given grace and forgiveness without even knowing it. I don’t know if this makes sense but that’s how I feel and even the idea that Fran Lebowitz couldn’t possibly experience love I just think is misguided especially because she had an incredibly deep friendship with Toni Morrison, and many other people who did deeply love her, and she deeply loved them.