I appreciate you writing about this, if for no other reason, you are educating Americans who would not have any idea what is happening elsewhere in the world (And that's a topic all by itself).
I think you get at the real issue near the end of your writing. The conservative right in the U.S. does not make a good faith argument here. And I don't believe it's entirely for religious reasons that they wanted to get rid of Roe. Current actions by those same people indicate they want to get rid of contraceptives now also. It's not about religion as much as it seems to be about penalizing women for having sex and controlling women. It's power more than religion (although history has shown that religion is often weaponized for power, right?).
It’s about raw, unadulterated power! Women are just one step in that goal… Jews are another. Christians for Jews, mostly prodding by fundamentalist Catholics is not about supporting Israel or Jews or against anti-semitism … it’s about bringing about the apocalypse faster, where one of the tenets is that the Jews will finally have their own country… but then will be converted to Christianity as they repent for their rejection of Jesus and ultimately his murder by crucifixion … but not any ol Christian religion will do, just the one true one, the one directly descended from Jesus Christ through Peter, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. They won’t stop at abortion or contraception or handmaidening women… these are all steps on their way to the End Days where there will be 1,000 years of rule after the conversation of the Jews where the faithful will then be Raptured into the kingdom of god. It’s pointless to argue the immorality of all of this because we’re talking about being OF this world and they are talking about being IN the world. The more suffering they endure on this plane, the closer they will be to God for ALL ETERNITY! We got ~60-100 years; they are talking FOREVER!!! Can’t argue with them…
Oh yeah, I know how insane this sounds. I know I sound insane. But that doesn’t mean they don’t believe it and these are adults passing this onto their children as if it wasn’t abuse and getting elected into office where they can use the power of the State to impose their beliefs onto us…
I grew up in that weird American Catholicism that Butker screeched from that commencement podium. It sounded perfectly “sane” in the context of my childhood and adolescence. Before Roe was decided, the nuns, priests, all the lay people in my TLM parish were militant against any suggestion that abortion was anything but murder. When Roe was handed down, the WAILING, the declaration of war against the secular, in fact they openly declared murdering an abortion doctor was justifiable because that killing saved thousands of babies. The language hasn’t changed, these Catholics have always said this. I tell people this and they tell me I’m crazy, that’s not what Catholicism is. Maybe, maybe not but it is my lived experience. Tell me you’re Catholic and I’ll immediately assume you’re a TLM Catholic with Butker beliefs — even if you’re not today, a little bit of power and I will bet every dime I have that you can be turned.
Catholics see themselves as the aristocracy of Christianity, the first church, the church of Peter, the church that is directly descended from Jesus Christ. Every other Christian denomination is a derivative, fake. This they also teach this, perhaps in whispers, but it’s an entrenched belief.
Catholics in America are scary. They are militant and … well, singularly focused on their immortal souls that can only be saved by saving other souls. Because God keeps score and will ask what your “soul count” is before He lets you into heaven.
America is cursed by two oceans that enables religious militants to develop without natural predators. Religion here is a poisonous pit that the rest of the world tosses its cast-aways into and has since the Dutch expelled the Puritans in what ,1620, because they were a poison there.
I'm sorry that you experienced that--that sounds very traumatic. I personally wouldn't paint all Catholics with this brush. There are many Catholics in the US who do not behave like this, including Catholics who are devout about their faith. The Catholic Church has many 'factions' for lack of a better word. Someone like Richard Rohr or James Martin (or most Jesuits) have a very different way of being deeply Catholic that I think is truer to Catholic teachings, whereas many conservative American Catholics have taken their political ideology and conflated them with being a Christian.
I keep being told that, yet at this point, it is far safer to treat every American Catholic like I do FOX News, Facebook, Xitter… not wasting any time trying sort out the safe Catholics from the dangerous ones and just assume all American Catholics are unsafe… like the man in the woods vs the bear. I choose the non-Catholic, an atheist if one is available.
Canadian, Mexican, S/C American, Italian, Spanish, French, Nordic, English , etc Catholics are a very different bunch. America? Nope… this is the cesspool of horrible religious that is too insane for the rest of the world to stomach … has been that way since Plymouth Rock… did I mention I want out of here??? This is a big reason why. Catholics in America lie to themselves about what Catholicism is as easily as they lie to themselves about what Democracy is or health care or personal freedom.
Any analyst, thinker, or writer knows that to compare and contrast is a great approach to deeper understanding. So this post by Kirsten Powers contrasting the state of abortion in Italy to that of the United States is so valuable and well worth reading and thinking about.
This quote: "The fact that there are American Christians who will read this and claim Pope Francis and the Italian bishops don’t understand Catholicism is part of what makes the abortion issue in the US so maddening to discuss."
The homily at my Catholic Church alternated between 2 topics: Give more money to keep the Catholic schools running and abortion. Anyone who had an abortion committed a mortal sin, was excommunicated and bound for hell, unless they went to confession Equally frightening: anyone that performed or helped someone have an abortion would receive the same punishment by the church. That was 1972, I was 16, scarred me for years. I realize that no one is forcing women to have abortions. As a man I never faced an unplanned pregnancy As someone who studied biology in college I am aware of the cycle from conception to birth, this gives me pause. Yet I will never vote or advocate for “pro life”. If these people were truly pro life we wouldn’t have the problems of poverty, health care and housing in the US.
Corollary. There’s the potential of a 4 cell entity to become a fetus, eventually a baby in the uterus and exiting to be a baby. At what point is it immoral to stop this process? We know the cells were generated by humans? Do the cells have a soul? How about the sperm or unfertilized egg? Is there an Ethical Philosopher out there?
There are lots of different views on this. The vast majority of Jewish rabbis do not believe abortion is wrong or that a fetus is a person. The point of my piece is everyone is entitled to their own view but this is not the open and shut moral case the Catholic Church says it is—unless we are to believe Jews are immoral or don’t understand the Old Testament which is often invoked by anti abortion ppl.
I agree that it isn’t an open or shut case - Old men in Italy/Vatican making decisions when they were never married, supposedly celibate and oblivious to the world.
Kirsten, thank you for this article. This issue is an extremely difficult and gut-wrenching one for everyone on either side of it. It’s an issue that, unfortunately, has no compromise. Abortion is either allowed or not allowed. As a lifelong Catholic trying to be devout but often failing, it’s an agonizing issue for me, but I am staunchly pro-life, because the end result of abortion is the death of an innocent, unborn child. That goes beyond religion. Thank you for this forum, and I respect everyone on both sides of this issue.
Hardly anyone is going to want “the fingerprints of the U.S.” anywhere near their countries soon. Overly aggressive is spot on. Thanks for another thoughtful post.
I wish more Americans could understand life here in Italy and what it's like to have a both a social safety net and a broad-minded approach to individual choices. When I try to talk to my Italian partner about the abortion rights trauma in the US, he truly can't comprehend how a small closed-minded minority can even begin to legislate on behalf of the entire country.
When I talk to Italian friends in Italy about the religious right in the US they are flabbergasted—-even sometimes think I’m trying to pull their leg to get them to believe something outlandish until I convince them that I’m totally serious.
Italians are, before all else, pragmatic. They have enough on their own plates to be consumed by distraction politics. After 69 governments in 70 years, people here have learned to be much more philosophical about tirade topics like abortion. Italians don't take well to being told what to think.
I wouldn't put much faith in anything Meloni says. The thinking female population here is just happy she's not unleashed her inner Fascist to the degree they thought she would. She's a populist. I'm waiting and seeing about what she does long term if she lasts.
How Americans are on these kinds of topics is one of the reasons I'm so happy not to be there any more. 😂
Yes, I agree Meloni can't be trusted. My point was that no Republican presidential candidate would ever say something like that, nor would they have to. In fact, if they did, they would never win office. That she felt she had to say this is evidence of a very different electorate in Italy than the US, with one party controlled by conservative Christians.
You hit the nail on the head when you point out the hideous spectacle of American Christians, Protestant or Catholic, trying to impose their religious rules on others. I remember attending a church a few years ago and because I was English, one of the US guys took me aside and explained some basic expectations, including opposition to abortion. I felt like throwing up.
Now, the idea of Jesus followers truly living by the radical principles of the Sermon on the Mount, while not forcing others to do so, that’s a different matter entirely. That energized me, and simultaneously humbles me.
Great column Kirsten! Abortion rights. I try to follow the advice that I received many years ago - one needs to develop a fully formed conscience before making any significant life decision. Once that is accomplished, it is between the individual and her God.
Forming one's conscience is a topic for another post!
Yes--and as you know, that is a central Catholic teaching. Of course, conservative Catholics sound like fundamentalists on this topic: if your conscience doesn't lead you to their conclusions about abortion rights, then it is not 'fully formed.' !
You could start an entire series titled, "What Americans can learn from Italy about..."
This was a great essay, Kirsten, exploring so many sides to this disturbing trend in America. The comments are gold, as well, and have me thinking about where we are headed in the United States when it comes to religious freedom and human rights of all kinds. What kind of country are we if we are suddenly governing from the morals of a single religion that no longer even follows/agrees with the leaders of their own religion? Or worse, who are we if we are creating laws based on an extremely misguided view of this single religion?
Then, on the flip side, what kind of country are we when we're suddenly scared to admit we are Christian or Catholic for fear of people assuming we're "one of those" Christians or Catholics -- the kind who want to throw you in jail for believing you're entitled to a morning after pill because you need a morning after pill. There are still Christians out there who are true followers of Jesus's teachings and believe in loving thy neighbors and helping those in need, AND who will gladly stand up for a woman's right to get an abortion. Some Christians want to throw those kinds of Christians in prison for that.
Like I said, I'm scared of where American is heading.
"There was a period of time when I did believe being a “real Christian”™ meant accepting this teaching, during which I wrote some deeply regrettable columns I wish I could delete from the Internet."
My favorite sentence on Substack this week. Thanks as always for modeling the willingness to evolve and humility about the whole process.
Great piece, Kirsten. I was born and baptised into Catholicism. As is my entire family. During my later teen years (during when I read the Christian bible cover to cover) I spent a much time analysing the various Christian sects, Hinduism, Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism ... . I rejected them all and formed my own spirituality. 30 years later in life, I am still so comfortable and at peace within my own beliefs.
When I read the Jodi Picoult book A Spark of Light, I was really surprised to learn some of the non-religious reasons why a conservative government might be politically and economically motivated to ban abortion because I had naively assumed that it was based on a genuine moral opposition to abortion. I wonder if dwindling birth rates/populations and increased migrant diversity will ever lead Italy to change course.
Yes that's a great point and definitely a concern. Of particular concern to me is how American anti-abortion groups will enter the fray and exploit these issues as we can see that already are.
Totally. I have a close family member who wields the term "globalist" as an insult. But this conversation has me wondering if an unintended benefit to nationalist thinking is that we don't spread our disease to others, sort of how my mother's tubal ligation unintentionally saved her from cancer spreading.
Italy rarely takes action on something that would inconvenience them. Especially, when it involves reputation and freedom. Italy may have accepted that cash, but that doesn't mean they will use it for that. They are brilliant in business, very savvy.
It’s interesting you say that because the head of that group actually told reporters they have no intention of entering the family planning clinics and I thought that was strange, because no American anti-abortion person would even say something like that let alone not take advantage of the opportunity. I wasn’t sure if they were just saying that or if they meant it.
Well, let's say the Italians are a savvy bunch with quirky human glitches, but they get away with it because not only are they major survivors living in a designer boot, a bit cramped, but the style generates multiple strands of charisma & charm we simply cannot deny ourselves.
I appreciate you writing about this, if for no other reason, you are educating Americans who would not have any idea what is happening elsewhere in the world (And that's a topic all by itself).
I think you get at the real issue near the end of your writing. The conservative right in the U.S. does not make a good faith argument here. And I don't believe it's entirely for religious reasons that they wanted to get rid of Roe. Current actions by those same people indicate they want to get rid of contraceptives now also. It's not about religion as much as it seems to be about penalizing women for having sex and controlling women. It's power more than religion (although history has shown that religion is often weaponized for power, right?).
It’s about raw, unadulterated power! Women are just one step in that goal… Jews are another. Christians for Jews, mostly prodding by fundamentalist Catholics is not about supporting Israel or Jews or against anti-semitism … it’s about bringing about the apocalypse faster, where one of the tenets is that the Jews will finally have their own country… but then will be converted to Christianity as they repent for their rejection of Jesus and ultimately his murder by crucifixion … but not any ol Christian religion will do, just the one true one, the one directly descended from Jesus Christ through Peter, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. They won’t stop at abortion or contraception or handmaidening women… these are all steps on their way to the End Days where there will be 1,000 years of rule after the conversation of the Jews where the faithful will then be Raptured into the kingdom of god. It’s pointless to argue the immorality of all of this because we’re talking about being OF this world and they are talking about being IN the world. The more suffering they endure on this plane, the closer they will be to God for ALL ETERNITY! We got ~60-100 years; they are talking FOREVER!!! Can’t argue with them…
Oh yeah, I know how insane this sounds. I know I sound insane. But that doesn’t mean they don’t believe it and these are adults passing this onto their children as if it wasn’t abuse and getting elected into office where they can use the power of the State to impose their beliefs onto us…
Yes, I know they do believe it--and it is scary and scarring to children exposed to it. It's scarring for adults, too, for that matter.
I grew up in that weird American Catholicism that Butker screeched from that commencement podium. It sounded perfectly “sane” in the context of my childhood and adolescence. Before Roe was decided, the nuns, priests, all the lay people in my TLM parish were militant against any suggestion that abortion was anything but murder. When Roe was handed down, the WAILING, the declaration of war against the secular, in fact they openly declared murdering an abortion doctor was justifiable because that killing saved thousands of babies. The language hasn’t changed, these Catholics have always said this. I tell people this and they tell me I’m crazy, that’s not what Catholicism is. Maybe, maybe not but it is my lived experience. Tell me you’re Catholic and I’ll immediately assume you’re a TLM Catholic with Butker beliefs — even if you’re not today, a little bit of power and I will bet every dime I have that you can be turned.
Catholics see themselves as the aristocracy of Christianity, the first church, the church of Peter, the church that is directly descended from Jesus Christ. Every other Christian denomination is a derivative, fake. This they also teach this, perhaps in whispers, but it’s an entrenched belief.
Catholics in America are scary. They are militant and … well, singularly focused on their immortal souls that can only be saved by saving other souls. Because God keeps score and will ask what your “soul count” is before He lets you into heaven.
America is cursed by two oceans that enables religious militants to develop without natural predators. Religion here is a poisonous pit that the rest of the world tosses its cast-aways into and has since the Dutch expelled the Puritans in what ,1620, because they were a poison there.
I'm sorry that you experienced that--that sounds very traumatic. I personally wouldn't paint all Catholics with this brush. There are many Catholics in the US who do not behave like this, including Catholics who are devout about their faith. The Catholic Church has many 'factions' for lack of a better word. Someone like Richard Rohr or James Martin (or most Jesuits) have a very different way of being deeply Catholic that I think is truer to Catholic teachings, whereas many conservative American Catholics have taken their political ideology and conflated them with being a Christian.
I keep being told that, yet at this point, it is far safer to treat every American Catholic like I do FOX News, Facebook, Xitter… not wasting any time trying sort out the safe Catholics from the dangerous ones and just assume all American Catholics are unsafe… like the man in the woods vs the bear. I choose the non-Catholic, an atheist if one is available.
Canadian, Mexican, S/C American, Italian, Spanish, French, Nordic, English , etc Catholics are a very different bunch. America? Nope… this is the cesspool of horrible religious that is too insane for the rest of the world to stomach … has been that way since Plymouth Rock… did I mention I want out of here??? This is a big reason why. Catholics in America lie to themselves about what Catholicism is as easily as they lie to themselves about what Democracy is or health care or personal freedom.
Any analyst, thinker, or writer knows that to compare and contrast is a great approach to deeper understanding. So this post by Kirsten Powers contrasting the state of abortion in Italy to that of the United States is so valuable and well worth reading and thinking about.
This quote: "The fact that there are American Christians who will read this and claim Pope Francis and the Italian bishops don’t understand Catholicism is part of what makes the abortion issue in the US so maddening to discuss."
The homily at my Catholic Church alternated between 2 topics: Give more money to keep the Catholic schools running and abortion. Anyone who had an abortion committed a mortal sin, was excommunicated and bound for hell, unless they went to confession Equally frightening: anyone that performed or helped someone have an abortion would receive the same punishment by the church. That was 1972, I was 16, scarred me for years. I realize that no one is forcing women to have abortions. As a man I never faced an unplanned pregnancy As someone who studied biology in college I am aware of the cycle from conception to birth, this gives me pause. Yet I will never vote or advocate for “pro life”. If these people were truly pro life we wouldn’t have the problems of poverty, health care and housing in the US.
Corollary. There’s the potential of a 4 cell entity to become a fetus, eventually a baby in the uterus and exiting to be a baby. At what point is it immoral to stop this process? We know the cells were generated by humans? Do the cells have a soul? How about the sperm or unfertilized egg? Is there an Ethical Philosopher out there?
There are lots of different views on this. The vast majority of Jewish rabbis do not believe abortion is wrong or that a fetus is a person. The point of my piece is everyone is entitled to their own view but this is not the open and shut moral case the Catholic Church says it is—unless we are to believe Jews are immoral or don’t understand the Old Testament which is often invoked by anti abortion ppl.
I agree that it isn’t an open or shut case - Old men in Italy/Vatican making decisions when they were never married, supposedly celibate and oblivious to the world.
Then again it is wrong for a male to spill his seed according to Hebrew scripture.
Kirsten, thank you for this article. This issue is an extremely difficult and gut-wrenching one for everyone on either side of it. It’s an issue that, unfortunately, has no compromise. Abortion is either allowed or not allowed. As a lifelong Catholic trying to be devout but often failing, it’s an agonizing issue for me, but I am staunchly pro-life, because the end result of abortion is the death of an innocent, unborn child. That goes beyond religion. Thank you for this forum, and I respect everyone on both sides of this issue.
Hardly anyone is going to want “the fingerprints of the U.S.” anywhere near their countries soon. Overly aggressive is spot on. Thanks for another thoughtful post.
I wish more Americans could understand life here in Italy and what it's like to have a both a social safety net and a broad-minded approach to individual choices. When I try to talk to my Italian partner about the abortion rights trauma in the US, he truly can't comprehend how a small closed-minded minority can even begin to legislate on behalf of the entire country.
When I talk to Italian friends in Italy about the religious right in the US they are flabbergasted—-even sometimes think I’m trying to pull their leg to get them to believe something outlandish until I convince them that I’m totally serious.
Italians are, before all else, pragmatic. They have enough on their own plates to be consumed by distraction politics. After 69 governments in 70 years, people here have learned to be much more philosophical about tirade topics like abortion. Italians don't take well to being told what to think.
I wouldn't put much faith in anything Meloni says. The thinking female population here is just happy she's not unleashed her inner Fascist to the degree they thought she would. She's a populist. I'm waiting and seeing about what she does long term if she lasts.
How Americans are on these kinds of topics is one of the reasons I'm so happy not to be there any more. 😂
Yes, I agree Meloni can't be trusted. My point was that no Republican presidential candidate would ever say something like that, nor would they have to. In fact, if they did, they would never win office. That she felt she had to say this is evidence of a very different electorate in Italy than the US, with one party controlled by conservative Christians.
Agree 100 %
You hit the nail on the head when you point out the hideous spectacle of American Christians, Protestant or Catholic, trying to impose their religious rules on others. I remember attending a church a few years ago and because I was English, one of the US guys took me aside and explained some basic expectations, including opposition to abortion. I felt like throwing up.
Now, the idea of Jesus followers truly living by the radical principles of the Sermon on the Mount, while not forcing others to do so, that’s a different matter entirely. That energized me, and simultaneously humbles me.
Great column Kirsten! Abortion rights. I try to follow the advice that I received many years ago - one needs to develop a fully formed conscience before making any significant life decision. Once that is accomplished, it is between the individual and her God.
Forming one's conscience is a topic for another post!
Yes--and as you know, that is a central Catholic teaching. Of course, conservative Catholics sound like fundamentalists on this topic: if your conscience doesn't lead you to their conclusions about abortion rights, then it is not 'fully formed.' !
“Between the individual and God.” Yes!
You could start an entire series titled, "What Americans can learn from Italy about..."
This was a great essay, Kirsten, exploring so many sides to this disturbing trend in America. The comments are gold, as well, and have me thinking about where we are headed in the United States when it comes to religious freedom and human rights of all kinds. What kind of country are we if we are suddenly governing from the morals of a single religion that no longer even follows/agrees with the leaders of their own religion? Or worse, who are we if we are creating laws based on an extremely misguided view of this single religion?
Then, on the flip side, what kind of country are we when we're suddenly scared to admit we are Christian or Catholic for fear of people assuming we're "one of those" Christians or Catholics -- the kind who want to throw you in jail for believing you're entitled to a morning after pill because you need a morning after pill. There are still Christians out there who are true followers of Jesus's teachings and believe in loving thy neighbors and helping those in need, AND who will gladly stand up for a woman's right to get an abortion. Some Christians want to throw those kinds of Christians in prison for that.
Like I said, I'm scared of where American is heading.
Me too!
"There was a period of time when I did believe being a “real Christian”™ meant accepting this teaching, during which I wrote some deeply regrettable columns I wish I could delete from the Internet."
My favorite sentence on Substack this week. Thanks as always for modeling the willingness to evolve and humility about the whole process.
Thx Kelly 💜
Great piece, Kirsten. I was born and baptised into Catholicism. As is my entire family. During my later teen years (during when I read the Christian bible cover to cover) I spent a much time analysing the various Christian sects, Hinduism, Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism ... . I rejected them all and formed my own spirituality. 30 years later in life, I am still so comfortable and at peace within my own beliefs.
When I read the Jodi Picoult book A Spark of Light, I was really surprised to learn some of the non-religious reasons why a conservative government might be politically and economically motivated to ban abortion because I had naively assumed that it was based on a genuine moral opposition to abortion. I wonder if dwindling birth rates/populations and increased migrant diversity will ever lead Italy to change course.
Yes that's a great point and definitely a concern. Of particular concern to me is how American anti-abortion groups will enter the fray and exploit these issues as we can see that already are.
Totally. I have a close family member who wields the term "globalist" as an insult. But this conversation has me wondering if an unintended benefit to nationalist thinking is that we don't spread our disease to others, sort of how my mother's tubal ligation unintentionally saved her from cancer spreading.
Italy rarely takes action on something that would inconvenience them. Especially, when it involves reputation and freedom. Italy may have accepted that cash, but that doesn't mean they will use it for that. They are brilliant in business, very savvy.
It’s interesting you say that because the head of that group actually told reporters they have no intention of entering the family planning clinics and I thought that was strange, because no American anti-abortion person would even say something like that let alone not take advantage of the opportunity. I wasn’t sure if they were just saying that or if they meant it.
Well, let's say the Italians are a savvy bunch with quirky human glitches, but they get away with it because not only are they major survivors living in a designer boot, a bit cramped, but the style generates multiple strands of charisma & charm we simply cannot deny ourselves.
May this message reverberate far and wide. Thank you for this.